Experience Strategy Podcast: And, But, Therefore With The World’s Most Industrious Storyteller, Park Howell

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Do you want to excel through the stories you tell, but find yourself struggling to clarify your message and impact? Our guest today is Park Howell, known as The World’s Most Industrious Storyteller for his track record of growing purpose-driven brands by using the power of story.

Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Experience Strategy Podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts, experience nerds, uh, strategists, Dave Norton and Aransas Savas.

Aransas: Welcome to the Experience Strategy Podcast. I'm your host, Aransas Savas.

Dave: And I'm Dave Norton,

Aransas: And today we are joined by Park Howell Park is known as the world's most industrious storyteller because he has an incredible track record of growing purpose-driven brands by using the power of story. He also hosts the Popular Weekly Business of Story podcast, which I had the great joy of appearing on a few months ago.

He's the author of Brand, but Witchery and the co-author of the Narrative, Jim for Business. He joins us today. To share one of his most well-known frameworks, the [00:01:00] ABT framework. It's something that you read a lot about in his work, and that can have a truly transformative impact on the ways we know, not just tell our stories, but the way we perceive our story and our purpose with our work.

So, Park. So excited to have you here to talk about how this framework came to be, why you started to use it in your work and how we can use it.

Park: Welcome. Absolutely. Thanks Dave, thanks so much for having me here. Um, I just love talking about the am but therefore it is a framework literally. That has been around since the beginning of recorded storytelling.

And in fact, Gilgamesh was the first recorded story back in the day. And you see this…

Aransas: Oh, we had him on the podcast the other day.

Park: Oh, okay. I got you. I think I had a little delay there. Yeah. Yeah. He's, you know, [00:02:00] he, he's a pretty rocking leader, follows the hero's journey, does all that stuff that all great storytellers do. Um, but. Hero's journey thing. You know, if people know about it, it's like a 12 to 17 step process and it's where I really started my storytelling career.

But it's complex. It's hard to get your head around. And about 10 years ago, just over 10 years ago, I learned about the and, but therefore the ABT from my now good friend, Dr. Randy Olsson. Now Dr. Olsson is a Harvard PhD evolutionary biologist. Gives up tenure, goes to U S C film school. Graduates produces three documentaries on climate change and global warming, but has now written like eight books, teaching scientists and academics how to have an impact with their complex communications using frameworks he learned in Hollywood.

And they all begin with the and, but therefore the ABT. Now I come from the branding marketing standpoint and when I first learned about it in his second [00:03:00] book called Connection. I looked at it from a brand's world and I thought, wow. I mean this thing is amazing because it enables you to take a complex brand message, simplify it so that your messages land right the first time, every time with it ultimately, so your audiences can easily digest and create meaning around your offering.

And that's why that's all I do now is I. Consult each coach and speak on the power story, and every one of my sessions begins by teaching attendees how to use the ABT. Therefore, these three words to build their narrative intuition, and then the rest of their communication, the rest of their storytelling is all based and built upon the ABTT.

Aransas: I am so excited for you to share that here. I will jump in for a minute just to say that we have overlapping origin stories in that I got my master's in theater, which is of course a masters in storytelling and. I [00:04:00] met Dave because I was at a talk that our colleague, Joe Pine, was delivering about the power of using theater and storytelling and hero's journey to create experiences.

And so it feels only appropriate that down the road the three of us should all be sitting in this room together right now. Yeah,

Park: I agreed. Well, Add to that, I studied music composition in theory and got a degree in that, and storytelling started coming up in that when they were talking about the Sonata Allegro form that Mozart and Hayden perfected and how they were using the story structures of the time to compose those masterpieces.

Back then many, many decades ago. When I learned about that, it didn't really resonate with me. I was kinda like, oh, that's cool. But then when I started studying story in our world, it all came flooding back. And now it's ironic. Iran. Iran said that I am like a, a teacher of the composition in theory. Of storytelling to help [00:05:00] leaders excel through the stories they tell.

So doing the same thing you did just from the music world.

Aransas: Exactly. Who knew? Right? I, I'm a big fan of arts education for lots of reasons. So talk to us about a b T. What is it? What problems does it solve?

Park: So the And, but therefore is this three word framework that uses the three forces of story. And what I mean by the three forces of story is this agreement.

Contradiction and consequence. It's set up problem resolution. It's act one, act two, act three. Essentially, when you're thinking about story structure, now, these three, four. Of agreement, contradiction and consequence work because our primal limbic brain is the problem solving decision making apparatus where all of our decisions are actually being made in the subconscious of, of our brain, of the limbic system.

So it loves the ABT because we are [00:06:00] spoon feeding it, meaning. It doesn't have to work for it. Um, the, the and, but therefore begins with a statement of agreement using the word. And let me give you an example of it. Uh, I was doing some work with Home Depot doing some training and one of their guys asked me, park, what's the shortest ABT that you know, so let me share this with you.

And I use this all the time. You communicate and care. That's your statement of agreement, to get people to nod Yes, that's right, you communicate and care, but bore I'd do that kind of tongue in cheek. I don't wanna be too offensive here, but that's the problem we're solving for. Therefore use the and, but therefore narrative framework to be able to hack through the noise and hook the hearts of your audiences.

Set up problem resolution. Um, one of the greatest ways fun, most fun ways to do this is we could work on a b t for your brand story. Right now, Dave s says, if you want to, it's a quick little exercise, we can show people in action. You ready? [00:07:00] Alright, let's do it. Yeah, let's do it. For all those watching out there, you can do this too.

It's a real easy way to dial in your, um, brand story. First, I want you to start with your number one audience. Who are they? I don't want three different audiences. I want that number one audience that makes up 80% of your business. Who would you say that is?

Aransas: Experienced Strategist.

Dave: Yep. Experienced strategist.

That's who our audience is.

Park: Okay, so you would start your ABT out as you are an experienced strategist, a professional experience strategist, working for what? A large organization or some company, and what is it that they are trying to achieve? What's that aspirational outlook that they want?

Dave: Relative to your service, relative to our service, they, they want to create value for their company and for the [00:08:00] customer through experiences.

Park: And why do they wanna create value for the company and the customer through their experiences? What does that ultimately lead to?

Dave: It leads to. People feeling very good about the company that they are engaged with the solutions, the overall, I hate to use the word again, experience. Yeah. But yeah. Right.

Park: Right. I mean, you're trying to create lifelong customers right through that experience by giving them an exceptional experience with your brand, product, or service offering to create a lifelong customer that ultimately boosts revenue with repeat business.

I. Okay. That fair to say? Yeah. So you, so you're, you're saying this from their perspective. You are a [00:09:00] professional experience strategist, and if you can design and implement those amazing experiences, then you will build lifelong customers that will boost revenue. With repeat business. Fair enough. That could be a statement of agreement we throw out there.

We get everyone nodding and go, yeah, that's me. That's what I want. That's exactly what I'm going for. Now, you insert the problem or the conflict, but you are not growing or building those experiences as quickly as you like because of what? What silos, what are they missing that you're gonna help

Aransas: silos.

Okay. Yeah, that's a one. Research experience. Research. Mm-hmm. Understanding and yeah, understanding the customer's real deep needs. Yeah.

Park: Okay. Beautiful. So now we've got three narratives you've just identified there. Um, silos, deal working, dealing with [00:10:00] silos so they're not having the same experience that cross the enterprise, right?

Because mm-hmm. Silos are approaching that experience in a different way. Um, they don't have the effective research available to them to really understand how to design those experience. So that's a second narrative. The third narrative then was what? To truly understand their. Core audience and their core customer and what experience they're currently experiencing.

Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Aransas: What their needs. What their needs are, what their needs are,

Park: and what the jobs to be done are. Yep. So of those three narratives, you're dealing in a silo. You don't have the research and you don't completely understand what their core needs are, which is the most important.

Aransas: I'd say understanding,

Park: and it might depend on who you're talking to, right?

Aransas: Right. Under, yeah. It really does. I mean, I think what gets in the way the most is the silos, right? Okay. That even if we get to needs, ultimately we don't get to execution and impact because everybody's going in different [00:11:00] directions and everybody thinks they own the customer experience.

Yeah. And so there's no single point of view on what the customer wants and needs and how to meet those needs, so it's interrelated.

Dave: Sure, sure. But oftentimes it's old paradigms that are messing 'em up as, as well, they've been taught a way. To do things that's less than effective, but it's the only thing that they know how to do, and that's the understanding the customer more broadly through new frameworks that can really make the difference, I think for them.

Park: I. Alright, so this is a beautiful example of how the A B T enables you to find the singular narrative. So right now we've now identified four different narratives going on, dealing in silos, not having access to the appropriate research to give you the insights and intel you need. Not completely understanding the wants and needs of the [00:12:00] core values of, of your audience and what they're looking for.

And then that, that, that fourth one that you talk about, we're dealing in old paradigms. So what, for all of you watching out there, what I want you to do as you work through your ABT’s, I would have you write a ABT for each one of those problems that you're going to solve for. Have them in your back pocket, because our brain can't deal with a ton of different narratives going on.

It doesn't want to. Mm-hmm. It can get away with it. In a movie 'cause you're sitting there for two hours and you can have subplots and interrelated um, storylines going on. But in our world, in business marketing sales man, we got to be crystal clear on the problem solution dynamic that we're communicating and it always boils down to one singular narrative.

So let me, so this is great 'cause this is exactly how you do it. So, and this is what the ABT does is helps you identify what that singular narrative, let's go back to the silo. Around since you said, you know, [00:13:00] that's one of the premier things. And by the way, you might have four of these or six of these in your back pocket, and once you do the discovery on your audience or that prospect, maybe one is a silo, but the other one is the, you know, the old paradigms.

Once you hear that, then you come back to them with the ABT focused on that particular narrative. Do you see what I'm saying? So we wanna boil it down to a singular frame problem solution dynamic. So let's go back to our statement of agreement. You are a professional experience designer, and if you can, um, help tear down the silos within your organization, then you will create a much greater customer experience that will lead to lifelong re um, you know, customer experience and, and revenue generation.

I'm just vamping here at this point, but you see how I've now introduced that silo concept right up top. It's a statement of agreements and you are professional at this. And man, if you, when you can get through this silo situation, then you are going to have that [00:14:00] trajectory of customer experience you seek, but you are not experiencing or you're not delivering that customer experience right now because your silos are so entrenched.

Right, so now we really understand what the problem is. We're trying to build as much conflict or contrast between that statement of agreement, what they want and the but statement why they don't currently have it. Therefore then becomes your call to action. It's the act three, it's the resolution, it's the consequence to all that.

Therefore, imagine picture feel, you wanna get an emotion in there, what it's going to be like. Um, picture the, a smile on your customer's face when they have that incredible experience that we will help you design through our proven programs. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. So then even. Once you get in that therefore statement, you could then throw in, um, we'll help you with the research.

We will help you do the understanding and we will [00:15:00] help you, um, really appreciate what the values are of that customers as we help you eliminate those silos through this program. But now everything is hinging off that silo narrative. That's the beauty of the and, but therefore, It uses those three forces of story agreement, consequence or contradiction consequence.

That consequence becomes your call to action. Then, can I, can

Dave: I ask a question that makes sense. I love this. Yeah. Yeah. It makes, it makes sense. Lemme ask, let me ask a question. So I love where you're going and it, it totally makes sense. It makes it very much about story. How does the ABT method differ from the typical value proposition approach?

Uh, you know, when you think about value propositions, one of the words that gets used a lot is unlike, okay. So, mm-hmm. We deliver a service that is excellent. [00:16:00] Unlike our competitors who deliver a service that is just good. How, how, how does, how, how does, um, what you're describing relate to value proposition design?

Park: Two major paradigm shifts. So Dave, what you just demonstrated there is you are starting from the brand's point of view. We do this unlike our competition that does this, therefore you should hire us. It's exactly backwards. Us homo sapiens actually don't give a about you and your brand and your product or service.

We only care about us and what is going to help us survive or thrive and take advantage of things. So with the an, but therefore it makes you focus from their point of view. That's why you always begin with them. So paradigm shift number one, you and the brand are not the center of the story [00:17:00] your audience always is and what's in it for them.

Paradigm shift number two is you don't focus on what you make, but what you make happen in their lives. Outcomes, in your stories will trump your offering every single time. So what the ABT does is it makes you place that audience first, just like we did with you, the professional experience. Strategist, now you're talking to me as a professional experience strategist.

Wow, that's cool. You're not there pounding your chest as the brand. Tell me how wonderful you are or how different you are from someone else. You're actually connecting with me and what the hell it is I want and why that's in important to me, but it's still about me, but I don't freaking have it because I got this major problem.

Therefore, Picture what it's gonna be like when you get it. If you follow this way of doing things with us, you see, you and the brand and your offering don't come in until the absolute, [00:18:00] very end of the ABT. And what you now have created is a value proposition that is squarely anchored in what your prospects wants, their point of view of the world, and you simply come in as their mentor or guide in their hero's journey as they being the hero.

To help them get what they want through your experience, design and so forth. So, you know what the funny thing about it is? The ABT is an experience strategy in and of itself because you are spoon feeding this limbic problem solving decision making, buying brain. Content in the exact form that it wants to receive it.

From my perspective, what's in it for me? Why don't I have it? What do we do next? I love it.

Dave: You know, and Aransas, one of the things that makes me think about is that value proposition design has traditionally been about differentiation. So you have to think about how you're different from the competitor first before you're actually thinking [00:19:00] about the customer.

That's where the unlike comes in. Mm-hmm. But we've seen companies, uh, a lot of marketers move to hero based brand strategies where there is this big challenge out there that you have to solve for. T-Mobile would be a great example of that, this big problem that you have to solve for, and you really just don't care about the competitors all that much.

And ABt to me is. About the hero story, like you started off, it is about you becoming as a company the hero or the customer becoming the co hero. But either way, it's about hero development, um, which is very different from. Differentiation. Uh, it is it real? Yeah, unique. It is unique, but it's not the [00:20:00] traditional differentiation.

Does that make sense? So

Park: it's different. Yeah, it totally does, and I, I think one of the most powerful ways to differentiate your brand is to differentiate how you communicate to your customer. Again, placing them at the center of the story and then make it really, really easy. What I love about the ABT, we call it the DNA of story.

Because once you practice it and get it down, you will build all of your communication on top of it. It is fantastic for landing pages. Um, just go and take a look at one of your landing pages and see if it makes the same mistake we all make with our landing pages. Is it all about us? You know, it's about the brand, how great we are, how different we are from this, and gee, we're so good.

You oughta just come and buy us. Versus rewriting it as an ABT. From your audience's point of view, I did this with Sharp Electronics. I was, uh, training a virtual session with, I don’t know, 135 of their sales and marketers, and I took one of their landing pages and it was just blah, blah, blah sharp test, blah, blah, blah sharp is so wonderful, blah, blah, [00:21:00] blah sharp as industry leading, blah, blah, blah.

And I rewrote it from the actual. Audience's point of view, and they're basically, it said, you know, what you want is quicker, uh, turnaround times, inaccuracy and reliability in all your printing, but you don't currently have it because your current system is stuck on pause. Therefore, we can make your life easier at Sharp by doing this, this, this, this, this.

It took that landing page, it cut it down by two thirds. Um, that landing page was non-narrative, meaning you could put an and in front of every single sentence in there and we're so great and we do this and we're industry leading, which means it never gets out of exposition, it never gets out of Act one.

Mm-hmm. Nobody cares. Finally what happened is one of their national sales manager literally took a screenshot of my ABT 'cause it was a virtual training. He rewrote a presentation that he gave the very next day. He'd been trying to close a major, major piece of business for six months. I. And he said [00:22:00] he was getting nowhere until he reframed his sales pitch using the ABT and really spoke from the point of view of the customer.

He said within two hours he had a signed purchase order. The only thing he did differently was to use that ABT. I mean, that's an anecdotal story of the ROI. It's that user experience to make your messages land right the first time, every time because you're speaking to the narrative brain, the, the limbic, you know, problem solving, decision making brain.

Aransas: It's interesting too because it makes me think about there was some work we were doing to try to get. Consumers to really think about the, the innovative potential of some of the work that we were doing. And Dave had the idea of reframing it as superpowers and it had very much the same effect because it got their heads into the perspective of, well, what might be possible?

If I had [00:23:00] these unimaginable superpowers and they started to dream so much bigger and get so much more engaged. Yeah, because they could, because they could take themselves out of sort of their logical, linear image of what they had seen and done in the past, and they were able to see forward to the real potential.

And I think it's doing very much the same thing.

Park: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, a lot of people will say, geez, park, this seems kinda gimmicky. And when I first saw it, I mean, it, it resonated with me and I'm like, wow, this is cool. But then I thought, eh, it's only three words. Could it really be that powerful?

So I started going back in time to figure out where has this shown up before. So let me ask you, which either one of you, what's one of your favorite nursery rhymes? Or if I say nursery rhyme, what pops to mind? I. Uh,

Aransas: was, you're the one who spends some time around little kids. You think of a song

Dave: Yeah.

Ringing around the [00:24:00] Rosies, which is not a rhyme, but it's a song. But does that count ashes as we all fall down?

Park: We'll, we'll do one that's a little, yeah, that's set up problem resolution, right? Because that was all about smallpox, I think, back in the day, wasn't it? The plague. Plague, yes. It was really bad, but, ass ass.

Let's do one. Um, uh, little Miss Mt. Little Miss Muffet sat on her tuffet eating her curds and away along came a spider who sat down beside her and frightened Miss Muffet away, right? So everybody knows that. And virtually any of these very, very memorable, or most of these very, very memorable nursery rhymes are built off of the ABT structure.

So you might be thinking Park, I don't hear an And, but therefore anywhere in there. What do you mean? Well, let's pull it apart. Little Miss Muffett sat on her tuffet and she was eating her curds and way. That's our statement of agreement. It's our setting up the stage. It's our act one now's the [00:25:00] complication, but along came a spider who sat down beside her, which now triggers that limbic brain saying, what's the consequence of that?

What the hell happened next? Therefore, frightened, Ms. Muff away. Jack and Jill went up the hill and they were fetching a PA of water, but Jack fell down and broke his ground. Now, Jill came tumbling after set up problem resolution. So this has been around for the Gettysburg Address is a perfect embedded abt.

There's three ABT’s Lincoln used throughout it. And here's the beautiful thing about the, the, the, the, the address. Do you realize it's only two minutes long? It's iconic. It's like 272 words and it is only two minutes long. And Lincoln was not the keynote speaker at Gettysburg that day. Do you know who was?

No, nobody does. His name was Edward Everett. He was a former Secretary of State and self-proclaimed order. Edward Everett spoke for [00:26:00] two hours and is completely lost to time.

Aransas: These are such fun examples. Park tell us some examples that we'd recognize from brand stories.

Park: Yeah. Okay. You know, let's actually start with Apple.

And I love their old campaigner to think different. That's the, the, the, the consequence of it. And when they had that beautiful ad out there when they were showing all of these crazy people, the Einstein’s of the world and whatever, and as they watch you through that, they said, you know, here's the setting is everybody is a part of this machine, the I B M machine, if you will, using the PC world, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Therefore think different. Think differently. That's a, you know, a good example of it. Um, Nike just do it. That's their call to action. Of course, that's their statement of consequence, but they set that up back in the day when they first came up with it, is look at, you have all of this great potential, but you're sitting around with all this [00:27:00] self-doubt doing nothing.

Therefore just do it. And you see that, especially prominent in their early storytelling when they were really s you know, uh, supplanting that, that just do it line into our heads. Um, you see it, it's a great way for unique value propositions to come together. Audi is another one. If you look at, uh, their advertising and I think their agency out of.

Um, San Francisco is just absolutely remarkable when it comes down to storytelling. And you see when they are talking, they're all about the engineering side of it. It's the heartbeat of what they do. And so they set that up by saying, yeah, there are lots of different cars you can buy out there, and they're affordable and they're nice to have, but they don't have the precision engineering you're gonna find at Audi.

Therefore, You know, then they demonstrate it in their stories as they show the the vehicles doing their things. So those are some of the areas I'm looking at. Looking at. When you're thinking about taglines, [00:28:00] that's typically that final call to action coming from that unique value proposition, Dave, that you and I discussed earlier, that that setup.

What is the current, you know, stasis situation in an audience's world, and what is it they want relative to that? I. But of course, why don't they have it? Therefore just do it, therefore think different. Therefore drive an Audi because of its engineering, that sort of thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Aransas: So clever and concise, and I love these familiar examples 'cause I think it really helps us ground our understanding of how companies use these.

So what's the best way for teams to go about doing this work?

Park: Well, it takes practice. I mean, using an ABT on an ABT. Um, the ABT is short and sweet. But tricky. You've gotta practice, practice, practice it. And I know it's only three words, but what people get tripped up on is first they start talking about themselves and the brand.

You don't wanna do that. You don't get to come into the last part of the [00:29:00] therefore statement. Um, number two is don't be talking about your offering. It's your outcomes. You'll have plenty of time to talk about your features and functions, but what's in it for your audience? And it's just start practicing.

And one of the. Best places to do that around. This is in your email writing. I mean, you gotta write the things anyways and you're trying to get people to not ghost you. Um, take the time, sit down and write an ABT. For an email to, to launch into it. I learned this. I, I taught this at Arizona State University in a master's program for five years, and one of my banker clients there happened to be in the banking industry.

He came into me one day. He says, oh my God, this ABT is fantastic for email writing, and it's something I hadn't really thought about. And I go, what do you mean? He goes, well, it takes me a little longer upfront, but now my emails are one third, the length. People actually know what the hell I'm talking about in there.

'cause I'm not like trying to figure it out as I'm typing through it and I, my response rate is going way up and people are actually [00:30:00] saying, man, I know what you're talking about now. So I realized that that is one of the most powerful ways to practice the am but therefore, 'cause in the emails, you've gotta write 'em anyway.

You may as well put 'em to work for you.

Aransas: I love that from a behavioral standpoint. Very smart. Cool.

Park: I have a whole program. It's called Story Quest. It's a 21 day, um, spotting and crafting ABT’s in the wild, and people, they're just fun little exercises, you know, beginning with right three emails today using the ABT, but can you find abts?

How many can you find on the front page of the New York Times? Next time you're listening to N P R, how often do they set up an oncoming segment? With the and, but therefore, um, you'll see that, you'll find it and hear it everywhere. Write a LinkedIn post using the ABT and do an ABT test on that.

Do a typical post and then rewrite it as an ABT and see how much your engagement goes up. So it's just about practice, practice, practice and using it in [00:31:00] all of your communication.

Aransas: And then say things like, I'm doing an ABT on my ABT A K A.

Park: Yeah. You know, Ron, it's one of the funniest abts I ever heard.

Um, I was, about this time last year, I was working with a very large veterinarian association, their sales and marketing group. There's about, I think there's eight of them in the session, and one of the young writers, I'll just call her Sarah, after the first session came in and the second session, and she was very dismissive.

And she said, you know, park, I've got a degree in journalism and I've been writing, you know, this stuff for several years now, and I could see how the ABT might be effective, but I'm not gonna use it because it seems so stilted to me. Therefore, I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing and I cracked up.

And I looked at everyone on the Zoom session and everyone was looking at me like, why is he laughing? 'cause I thought she was playing a joke on me. And she didn't realize until I told her, I said, Sarah, do you realize you [00:32:00] just used the ABT to tell me why you're not going to use the ABT? And she started cracking up, you know, I mean, to her credit, she goes, oh my God, you're right.

I did. I go, it is embedded in our brain whether you like it or not, and. And don't worry, people do not know what you're doing to them with the ABT because they don't understand the magic. And that's what I say. You gotta understand the magic if you're gonna cast this spell. Mm-hmm.

Aransas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We're big fans of ancient techniques for modern experiences.

We have begged a whole episode on that, so we'll be sure to link to that episode in the notes as well. Where should people look for you park if they wanna know more about your

Park: work? Yeah. Um, come on over to the business of Story. It's business of story.com. If you wanna learn more about the ABT just business of story.com/abt, I do most of my work on social media, on LinkedIn.

Um, so if you want to come and follow me over there, I'm always [00:33:00] posting a tennis stuff there. And then Aransas says, you know, I've got a weekly podcast comes out. Every Monday I have a really interesting guest on there this week on the business of Story Guy by the name of Henner Gracie. And if you're into Brazilian Jiujitsu at all in any way, shape or form, I'm not.

Our son is a purple belt in it and he co-host the show with me. Henner Gracie's the grandson to Helio Gracie, who invented, created Brazilian Jiujitsu and Hanna's father. Brought it to America and he's job now is to spread it throughout the world. Well, he came out with a really cool book, the 32 Principles, how You Can Use These Juujitsu Principles, whether you're on the Mat or not, to Be Better in Business Relationships in Life.

And when I looked at that, I said, you know, these 32 principles, Also work in experiences, customer experiences, especially around storytelling. So he's on this week just talking about his 32 principles, and then we explore how you can use those same principles in your communications and your storytelling.

So it's kind of fun. [00:34:00]

Aransas: Fabulous. Well, we are so grateful for you coming over to visit us at the Experience Strategy Podcast. We look forward to continuing to listen to your show and continuing to work on our own ABT’s uh, listeners. Let us know how your ABT’s are coming along and, um, we will continue the conversation in a couple of weeks.

For all of you listening, thank you for being here. Thank you for all the great input in terms of who you wanna hear more from and what energizes and empowers you to deliver impactful experiences for your companies and customers. Head on over to the experience strategy podcast.com for more episodes.

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