Experience Strategy Podcast: How to Lead CX Transformation and Drive Customer-Centric Leadership

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Amy Shore spent most of her career in Sales and Operations. Three years ago she became the Chief Customer Officer of Nationwide Insurance with a mission to transform it into a truly customer-centric organization. In this episode, Amy will walk us through the 3 key stages of this transformation.

Voiceover: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome to the experience strategy podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts, experienced nerds, Dave Norton and Aransas Savas. 

Aransas: Welcome to the experience strategy podcast. I'm your host, Aransas Savas.

Dave: And I'm Dave Norton. And today we are joined by Amy Shore. And Amy, like so many chief customer officers and so many chief experience officers, didn't begin her career in experience or a customer officer role. She began her career in sales. and operations and learned a lot from those roles that fueled her role at Nationwide when three years ago she became their chief customer officer with a mission to transform Nationwide insurance into a.

So, [00:01:00] in this episode, Amy will walk us through the key stages of this transformation and some of the ways that she used her past lives to inform her future life and maybe some of the ways that she, uh, is learning along the road how to lead as a Chief Customer Officer. Amy, thank you so much for joining us today.

Amy: Well, hello, and thanks for inviting me to be a part of the show. 

Aransas: Thank So Amy, I know this has been a big transition for you to take over as Chief Customer Officer at Nationwide. Uh, I'm super interested in hearing what the journey has looked like for you to fulfill this big mission of transforming this organization into one that is truly customer centric.

So, so what were the first steps that you took when you? 

Amy: [00:02:00] Sure, so I think it's important context to understand it was a newly created role at the time and Nationwide will be 100 years old in 2026. So it was really an opportunity to To be handed a blank canvas and find a way to create something that had never existed before inside of a company that had a lot of history.

Now I'm really fortunate because with Nationwide being a mutual company, it's grounded in a foundation of being focused on the customer. But we really wanted to take All of that to the next level. So step one, honestly, I, my informal stages, I call crawl, walk, run. But for the formality, I'm going to call it a line, build and activate.

So that first stage was really a line. And it started with let's create a common understanding of what customer experience is. [00:03:00] And that really had to start with me. So it involved extensive research, talking to a lot of external experts and consultants. Um, I used a blend of a lot of external information to, Build a framework that enabled me to start thinking about it differently.

So a blend of Gene Bliss's Chief Customer Officer 2. 0 book, the Forrester framework for building out customer experience competencies, um, and then I had to build a leadership team. And I knew it was important to bring in some Really strong external expertise, but I also needed to blend that with a group of internal leaders that knew how to navigate a large and complex enterprise.

And then it was a lot of alignment with my peers, the OCEO, and the board around how are we going to define success. And the [00:04:00] creation of a customer scorecard in the agreement from the CEO and the board that we're going to put customer outcomes in all of our incentive plans. So that was really, um, Phase of creating this common understanding of what is CX here.

Aransas: And I know for a lot of CCOs, one of the hardest things to do is to create a compelling storyline around the value to an organization around the the customer experience. So how did you create or foster that sense of belief in the O C E O? 

Amy: Well, I was also very fortunate at the time I became the OCCO, we got a new CEO, and we simplified our mission statement at the time.

We had a typical corporate [00:05:00] mission statement that was multiple sentences and had a lot of strong strategery in it, but wasn't a compelling call to action for our Associates. And so we simplified our mission statement to say we're going to be a protection company that provides extraordinary care. And so when your tagline is on your side and your mission statement says you protect people, businesses, and futures with extraordinary care, that almost created for me a groundswell of buy in.

Again, I think also being a mutual company helped. So it didn't take a tremendous amount of Convincing that it was the right thing to do, but another important phase of this alignment stage of the development was to Gather all of the pieces and parts and resources that existed across the enterprise into [00:06:00] a central location.

So we could really become much more effective at it. So whether it was relationship management with external survey vendors, guardianship of the customer data, the CX expertise and resources that were embedded across the organization, bringing all of that together so we can, we could say, one, is there an opportunity for us to be more efficient?

And two, how can we help you do this much more effectively? Because people were still saying we buy in. Intellectually, but, but prove it to me that you and your team can make a difference. 

Dave: It's so amazing that the CEO would make, uh, and the leadership team would make that change, simplify the mission statement.

And then, like you said, you had a blank slate, but you had all of these resources that were around the company that just needed to be brought together. [00:07:00] What, what an amazing, um, kind of. Time period that you were, you were going through in those early stages. You must have felt like, Hey, we're going to do something big here.

Amy: I, I would say, in hindsight, it's clearer, I've, as I describe it to you, it sounds like it was this nice linear path of, we did A, then we did B, then we did C, and then like, voila, the heavens opened. No, I wandered around a little bit trying to figure all this out and bring the organization with me and then understand what do we have and what gaps exist and, you know, and another important part of.

Buying the time to be able to do this alignment phase was developing allies and partners and building communities and influencers at the highest levels embedded in the organization. So whether it was our chief digital officer, our chief marketing officer, our chief technology officer, those who own the delivery of the experiences [00:08:00] in the businesses, how do I bring, uh, A group of, um, advocates along the way so that people are asking mm-hmm to get better at this, rather than me trying to push people that this is an area where we really need to get better.

Aransas: Well, I think that's especially hard in older organizations that have long embedded processes, hierarchies, silos, and I think. Many organizations, again, especially older organizations where these have been more deeply embedded in the fabric of the organization, uh, have struggled even more since the pandemic with the effects of silos and hierarchies.

How did you create trust with your partners across the organization that there was both benefit and power and aligning and unifying [00:09:00] on a customer vision.

Amy: vWell, you know, the, I, I think the pandemic was an accelerator for us in this regard because we were all facing Something we never imagined we would face in our careers.

And we sent 24, 000 people home to work in, in, in a week. And we all had to think about how to do things differently. And the needs of our customers changed dramatically and quickly. And we had to adapt to that. So it was a unifying force for us to bring people together behind this more so than ever. I, I, I think that's a positive that will come out of the pandemic for nationwide is that we unified nationwide.

behind the need to be there for our customers, um, and the silos fell down. And so a great example of this is we were, we were able to start bringing [00:10:00] together on a weekly basis, the leaders of all of our call center operations from across our 10 lines of business, um, to, to talk about how are we, what are we hearing from our.

Associates, what are we hearing from our customers and what gaps do we have from a tools and technology perspective and we were able to Get, um, support to implement things in a matter of weeks that might have otherwise in the olden days Taken months to get a chance to execute interesting 

Aransas: So I want to talk for a second about your associates.

So I mean I think in many organizations that have field forces and have office teams, there is a disconnect in terms of understanding the customer and customer goals and even even how the vision is executed. So So, clearly you, you could not have been successful at this [00:11:00] without creating trust and alignment between head office and field force.

How did you go about that? You talked a little about those who advocate for them, but, but kind of all the way down the chain, how did you create that trust and alignment?

Amy: Well, that's a perfect segue into what I would call the second phase, which was the build phase, where we really started to get up from crawling and start walking and the Piece we focused on in the build phase was culture and making customer experience a team sport.

We have learned from our employee engagement journey that Culture is owned locally, and we knew the culture of being customer centric had to be owned locally. So, supported by the new mission statement and the history of the culture, we used, actually I used a Deloitte model for foundational and differentiating factors [00:12:00] in building a customer centric culture and, um, got major support from this from human resources, and we built training and leader guides on starting with how do I find my path to the customer as an associate?

And then the next thing we did, which I think really helped is when you're When your mission says provide extraordinary care, 24, 000 people can define extraordinary care in 24, 000 different ways. And um, so we said we're going to help put some guardrails around what does extraordinary care look like here.

And so we did extensive research with, uh, customers and Our partners, because we're an intermediated business, for the most part, with financial advisors and insurance agents, um, and we came down to three experience principles, which were effortless. Personal and reassuring. [00:13:00] If you're providing extraordinary care, how does that feel to a customer?

It feels effortless. It feels like you know me and it was personal. And because you're a protection company, I feel reassured. And that translated it to something that associates could then figure out. In my corner of the world, how do I help? This customer feel reassured after this transaction or interaction has occurred.

Aransas: I love that and those are, those are powerful guidelines emotionally and that can be really resonant in terms of understanding how do you measure success of effortless personal and 

Amy: reassuring. And we are, we are still figuring that out, how you measure it at the journey and the sub journey level. Our ultimate measures of success that we, um, we hold everyone accountable for is the [00:14:00] customer outcomes that eventually matter.

Do we have more of the customers we want? Do they buy more from us and do they stay longer? Now, you can then, of course, break that down into different areas and, and different interactions, but we're, we're actually getting to the point now where we're, we want to be able to measure, um, the effectiveness at the journey and sub journey level, uh, but we're, we're not there yet.

That's a whole nother. Another conversation.

Dave: That's what you're working through right now. 

Amy: Now we have thoughts, . Yeah, we do have thoughts. We have thoughts. 

Aransas: Yeah. I mean because it is something I struggled with in past companies, but then it's also something that Dave and I have done a lot 

Amy: of work with our clients. Well that would be, we'll pencil that in and you know, another thing we , we'll circle back on that one.

Another thing we did to activate our associates that you cannot [00:15:00] underestimate is the power of storytelling. So, we actually created a program called Mission Moments That Matter, and it's an opportunity for associates to tell the story of how they or their team brought the mission to life of Extraordinary Care, and, um, that was It was very compelling and very motivating to associates to celebrate that.

And what it brought to light for us was sometimes associates had to go to heroic efforts in order to create extraordinary care and we had to do work with processes. and tools and simplification to make it so that extraordinary care and living those experience principles didn't take a heroic amount of effort.

And that was, that was another real aha moment for us as we were in this building phase. You know, 

Dave: that's such an important part of it is, [00:16:00] uh, when you, when you tell your employees, Hey, we want you to provide extraordinary care and then your, your systems don't work. Um, It really affects them, you know, or, or your 

Amy: processes are tough.

Yeah. I mean, we, we learned so much and it's one of the things that was exciting as we were going through these phases. We also knew you don't, you have to deliver wins every day. You can't say in three years we're going to be great. So an example of, of a win that came out of this kind of a learning is we still had a process.

Yeah. where we were requiring our customers to wet sign a document and fax it to us. And so explain to anyone, yeah, explain to anyone under 40 what a fax is or where to find one. Where to find one. And so, [00:17:00] uh, we created a A really low cost, simple tool for our associates called The Voice. It's embedded in Teams, so they didn't have to even leave the place where they're doing all their work, where they can submit ideas.

And this is one of the early ideas that came back, was like, Why in the world are we asking for... people to fax a document to us. And as it turns out in five of the states we do business in, the regulations still require a fax. But in the others, it doesn't. And we had just, to make it easy for us, we had created one process and, and worked toward kind of that lowest common or hardest to execute denominator.

Very quickly, we got everyone to agree. Well, in the other states, let's stop asking for a fax. So, yeah. 

Dave: What is going on in those states? That's what 

Amy: I want to know. I, you know, I won't name any names. I won't name any names, but you probably wouldn't be surprised. 

Dave: Yeah. [00:18:00] Okay. Well, good for you. That's awesome that you, you said, Hey, let's.

Only Use a fax process where we have to and right 

Amy: and that's just a very simple example but sometimes cx feels like a multi million dollar investment and while we were building and and spending money on really sophisticated tools, which I'll talk a little bit about next. We, we tried to really remember that small wins can add up to a lot of the expression we used is sometimes a small rock in a customer's shoe, um, is just a big a deal.

So, yeah, 

Aransas: so much of our research talks about little things and the effects of those, especially if they add up, they can create a very positive impression or a very negative impression. I think your [00:19:00] approach to involving those who are closest to the customer to understand those little things is so wise.

Um, but it also just modernizes the brand perception to address some of these things that feel really kludgy and 

Amy: old fashioned. Mm hmm. Well, and one of the gaps is we're in this build phase and we had kind of pulled everything together. One of the gaps we, we recognize, and I'm sure a lot of companies face this, is that we had a lot of information and coming from a lot of different places that nobody really needed to know.

What to do with with regard to kind of this voice of the customer. So we rationalized some of our external surveys We built up some of our internal survey processes for audiences that weren't weren't properly represented And, but the most important thing we did was we invested in a customer feedback management platform that enabled us to integrate all of this unstructured data from calls and [00:20:00] social and emails and complaints and texts and bring it all together and help us start to get insights out of unstructured data.

And that's been where we really have stepped up our game, um, and, and building capabilities with regard to. Having actionable insights, um, and we're still on that journey, but, uh, that's again, where it continues to build trust because we can bring unique and actionable insights daily to our, our lines of business about issues that are emerging with their, with their customers.

Dave: Wonderful. That's wonderful. Tell us about these, um, sophisticated tools that are like kind of the next step in your transformation. 

Amy: Well, the customer feedback management platform, again, the mining unstructured data is, is just a wealth of opportunity and we see it as an opportunity to [00:21:00] play offense so we can understand an emerging issue.

Go to one of our premier partners and say, you know, here's, here's an issue that's emerging from your customers. And I'll, and I'll give you an example. We were a large provider of retirement solutions for public employees, and we were able to go to a very large public employee retirement plan and say, a, um, a point of contention that we hear from your customers is this.

Our agreement with you, the administrator of the plan, is we can't let them do that. If you let us make this change for your customers, your customers are going to be happier. And what that does is now the intermediary, the partner, the owner of the customer relationship says, Wow, no one else has ever brought me insights about my customers like you're now able to do.

And so when we [00:22:00] can turn customer insights into. a tool to play offense and earn more business. I think that's really, um, uh, a leapfrog opportunity for us. So 

Aransas: exciting and valuable to these people because it does Symbolize true partnership instead of this being a transactional relationship. I hear in, in all of your examples how you're really thinking about bringing additional value through understanding your customer’s needs.

Amy: And I think that comes back to, um, my, the history of my career having been embedded in. Um, businesses and leading sales and leading operations is, you know, you don't, you don't get to stay and be successful if you don't add value. So whether it was me or another leader like [00:23:00] me, the CEO deliberately selected someone who would be wired that way historically.

Aransas: What did you bring from past roles into how you approach 

Amy: this one? So I. I brought a long memory of Wanting to have support, resources that help to elevate my success and not detract or distract from what I was trying to accomplish. So, that's why I have built a team with a culture that says that's That's how we have to be.

We are not overhead. If we're not adding value, then we can't, we can't waste people's time or resources. We have, we exist to help better the outcome that the teams are trying to achieve. 

Dave: Yeah, I think that that's really important. And I like how you said we're not overhead. [00:24:00] We either have to have a bottom line effect, or we have to have a top line effect, or we have to have both, right?

And I think this is where you, as an organization, become far more strategic in the way that you're thinking about what you're doing with CX. It's not just... It's about problem resolution. It's about strategically thinking about, um, how we're going to acquire more customers, like you said, get them to stay longer, um, get them to enjoy the time that they spend with you so that they have those positive memories.

Because ultimately. That's what's going to lead to value creation and if you're thinking strategically that way instead of we just, we always need to be just looking for problem resolution, I think you're, you're in a totally different [00:25:00] space, in a much better space, in a more, in a more strategic space.

Amy: One of the things that makes this job so interesting here at Nationwide as well is as you know. I've referenced a few times, we have many different business lines. So we're the largest insurers of pet health insurance in America. We're the largest insurer of farms and ranches. I mentioned we do public retirement.

You probably know us for home and auto insurance. We do commercial insurance. We're in excess and surplus lines. We do life insurance and travel insurance. We do so many different things and each of those. Businesses are in different stages of achievement from a CX perspective. So we really focus on how do we bring tools and structure and resources to bear that can elevate everyone's game, knowing that everyone's in a different starting point.

And, and for some, we are really in the place of [00:26:00] CX is a sustained competitive advantage. Um, and that's my goal is to get everyone to the place where we say it's a sustained competitive advantage. 

Aransas: And so when you were building this, did you start with a single business line or did you look across all of them, uh, where you could get wins universally?

Amy: I, we started across all, um, working with the experienced owners inside all of the businesses through these communities that I mentioned earlier, and really listening to what we can do to help all of them be better. And so things like federated journey mapping that's been going on, a common tool for journey minute.

management, even common language for the journey stages across the lines of business. Um, [00:27:00] and, and I'm proud to say that we're now to the point where we're testing journey experience teams, which is where, and you guys know this, but for the benefit of the audience, work is permanently organized around a specific customer journey.

And um, I mean, that's, that's, that's just, I am so proud of, of, of the teams here and the work that's happening to have graduated to that point. Um, and, and yeah, it. Um, the, that is a means to the end, not the end. The end is still, do we have more customers? Are they buying more or are they staying longer?

Dave: Yeah, but it's such an important step in the right direction because it means that you are not just focused on your processes. And yours and the sequence of events that you think the [00:28:00] customer should go through, but you're really focused on what does the customer. Actually want to go through what is the process that they are most comfortable with?

How are they using different channels? What are the most effective channels to support them on their journey? So kudos to you guys for making that that shift, uh, toward being more customer journey focused, not company. Uh, operations focused, uh, your process. And, and, 

Amy: you know, in our, because of the, the protection we provide our customers, certain moments in, in certain interactions, um, are like major life events and an analogy, I mean, the analogy I use is, you know, We have digital [00:29:00] capabilities for, uh, reporting claims.

But frankly, if I'm standing at the end of my driveway, and all I have is my phone in my hand and my clothes on my back, and my house is on fire, in that moment, I want the most empathetic person who works for this company to answer the phone after one ring and guide me through what I need to do next. Um, Whereas, if, you know, a few shingles have blown off, uh, in a storm, I may be very happy to take, go through a completely digital experience.

And so, Uh, for us, we have to recognize also what's at stake for the customer in that moment, um, of, of the journey and what's the severity of the moment so that we can make sure we're responding in the right way. One of our competitors actually completely digitized the process for if you want to, if you want to report that one of your loved ones has passed away and, and, you know, [00:30:00] we're not, we're not going to go there.

We're not going to say, um, you know. If you're calling to report the death of a loved one, please visit our website. Um, that's, that's, that's, no matter how smooth the digital journey is, that's not what the customer, probably not what the customer wants in that moment. Right. 

Aransas: I mean, I think that has become the most viral story about Chewy over the last year is how many people have talked about calling to cancel their subscriptions and then.

As part of the cancellation flow, receiving a note of sympathy and a memento of their lost pet, right? And that, to your point, it's really understanding where the customer is emotionally in a moment and using that as an opportunity to deepen that relationship instead of creating more distance.

Dave: Yeah, you know, and a lot of our listeners have probably heard us [00:31:00] reference things like situational analytics and, and situational strategy and really focusing on the situation that the customer finds themselves in.

This is a perfect example of what we're talking about when we talk about how do you. Focus on the situation that the customer finds themselves in and then rally the resources that you have to support them in the right way. So I think you're absolutely on the right path. Amy, you've got to stay focused on the differences.

In severity or just the differences in timing, there's a lot of different things that you have to take into consideration, but if you do that well, you're going to have a customer for life because they will remember that you were there for them.

Aransas: Yeah. It's also a great example of modes work that we talked about, [00:32:00] right? And so these customers are in different modes at different moments. 

Amy: Yeah. And there's a lot of conversation right now, I'm sure, again, a whole nother episode you guys are having is around, you know, what role does AI play in all of this?

What role does generative 

Aransas: AI 

Amy: play in all And, um, you know, and so for us, for now, we're using it as a co pilot, or, um, we, we use the expression, we're helping our associates be bionic, um, uh, you know, so, so if I'm the one that answers the phone and you're standing at the end of the driveway with only the clothes on your back and your phone in your hand, how can...

Uh, a tool share with me all the information I might need to know about Amy Shore and her family in that moment. And how can it inform me of three hotels nearby that will take a pet because, oh, by the way, I know Amy has a dog. And, um, if she has an attached garage, she may [00:33:00] also be losing her vehicle. So here's a rental car that I can get arranged for Amy.

And so, so it's, we're testing into how do we. Uh, prop up and prompt our associates in a situation like that, um, with the use of, of AI tools. Excellent. 

Aransas: I love that. I love that. Yeah. We talk about it giving people superpowers. Uh, so it's very, it's a very similar idea to being bionic. 

Amy: Yeah. 

Dave: It's wonderful. Wow, you guys have come a long way.

It's very impressive. Remind us how many years you've been in this particular role. 

Amy: So it'll be four years in October, which seems like it should be a really long time from now. But unfortunately, I think October's coming quickly. Four years 

Dave: does not seem like a long time. It seems like a very short period of time.[00:34:00] 

That's amazing. Well, 

Amy: and I had, I had the opportunity and I'm, I'm, I cannot tell you how thankful I am. I had the opportunity to completely reinvent myself. And so part of this journey, um, and I promise this isn't a moment of therapy for Amy, but I would be remiss if I didn't tell you part of this journey was I had to reinvent myself as a leader and, and pull on a lot of experiences.

Um, but I, but it, but it's. It has re energized me in a very significant way, um, about the work that we're doing here and, and the mission of the company. 

Aransas: I think that's an incredibly powerful piece of this and, as I said in the beginning, so many CCOs and CXOs. Came from other fields, whether it's marketing or operations or sales, they are, they tend to be people who have incredible strengths in other roles and are [00:35:00] passionate about the impact of a customer on a company's ROI.

And. I think understanding how to lead in a customer focused role, it takes a bit of transformation for the leader. And you describe yourself as a servant leader, Amy. So what does that mean to you?

Amy: Well, I, um, you know, I'm, I'm motivated by the success of the team and with this role, whether it was when I.

was a leader of five people or, or, or, and in this role, you know, the opportunity to influence the outcome that 24, 000 people can provide. So, um, the motivation to help the team successful, to help the team be successful at this, um, you know, kept me going. I'm like, we're going to figure this out together.

And I think that made a difference because [00:36:00] people knew and these, This community that we brought together, new, we're all figuring this out together. And my motivation and the motivation of my team is to elevate your level of success. I'm not even sure if I just answered your question. Yeah, 

Aransas: yeah. I mean, I think it, it certainly captures that idea of servant leadership.

Uh, but it also describes perfectly what it means to create safe and courageous spaces for learning and growth. And I think to me that, that is 

Amy: a huge 

Aransas: part of success in any role. Whether it is a CCO or otherwise, but it's really hard to see the cost of unsafe spaces um, from the outside. It's a difficult thing to measure and when we get to see what it looks like when a [00:37:00] leader leads from this place of authentic.

Uh, support of exploration and, uh, and courageous leadership, I, I think we can feel it across an organization and, and I suspect that was a big factor in the trust and buy in that you created. Uh, because as Dave said, you've made a lot of difference in four years and I'm sure there are times where it felt hard and slow and what you're describing is truly a transformation.

Amy: Thank you. So, now we're focusing on how do we keep, um, the change management moving forward. How do we continue to focus on adoption and activation? You know, we've built a lot of capabilities. We've built tools. We've built improved experience opportunities, but we can't assume if you build it, they will come.

We have to focus on change management. And that's, [00:38:00] um, it's great to be at this place where we're now focusing on adoption and change management. With capabilities and service and experience offerings, um, and then we're also really focused on, uh, activation of data and, and using the power of the enormous amount of data we have to, Take experience design to the next level.

And so there's still more to be done So I if it went crawl walk run I think there's I don't I think there's a jog in a sprint phase in there left to be figured out as well Mm hmm, and probably 

Aransas: still some more walking, right? Yes. What is the biggest challenge to 

Amy: adoption? Um, You know, I think it is as simple as people's plates are just amazingly full, whether it's the customers, whether it's the professionals who we do business [00:39:00] with, the financial professionals or the insurance professionals, or whether it's our own associates, everyone's plate is just really full.

And there's a lot of, a lot of priorities and we have to make adoption as compelling. But as easy as possible. In some cases, it's in some cases, it's ripped the band aid off and where you just say, all right, this is the new default. Um, but in other cases, it really is. Um, it really is about. The WFM and the communications and the reinforcement, continued reinforcement.

Aransas: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that's where the measurement piece is going to get really interesting. How do, how do we measure success on some of these difficult to measure factors so that people are rewarded for, for these behaviors [00:40:00] and People are able to see in action the impact of these behaviors. It only deepens trust and buy in.

Well, Amy, we are so excited to hear and share your story. Uh, you, I'm sure in many ways this is a unique situation and so much of it feels nearly universal to what CCOs and CXOs are going through. And so by sharing your story, you fast track the journey for others, and that's really why our whole show exists.

because we believe we move faster and further together. And so we appreciate your candor and your detailed descriptions of what this looks like so that we can, we can all collectively in this field, uh, grow alongside you. But we're excited to see how this affects nationwide insurance overall. [00:41:00] over the long term.

So, we hope you'll, you'll stay close to us and come back with a postscript at some point. Uh, and maybe in another four years we can see where this is.

Amy: As long as the sound of the waves hitting the beach don't drown me out in four years, then I'll be happy to you go. All right. 

Aransas: So, we know Amy's long term goal.

Amy: Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to speak to you and, um, I appreciate the work that you do. Thank you so much. 

Aransas: For those of you listening, please get the transcript for this show, we'll be sure to give you access to it so that you can create your own playbook for transforming your organization.

Whatever stage of this journey you are in, you have support, you have tools, you have resources, we are here to help. So reach out to us at stonemantle. co for much, much more. [00:42:00] 

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