Experience Strategy Podcast: Leveraging Transformational Travel to Drive Relevance and Impact at Sierra Club

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In this episode, Experience Strategy Podcast hosts Aransas Savas and Dave Norton sit down with Brian Anderson, Director of National Outings at the legendary Sierra Club. With over 130 years of advocating for people, places, and the planet, Sierra Club has mastered the art of crafting transformational travel experiences that drive personal growth and global impact. Packed with insights on experience design, engagement strategy, and impact measurement, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to harness the power of transformational experiences. Tune in now and discover how Sierra Club is pioneering a new era of meaningful, impactful travel.

Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to the experience strategy podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts experience nerds, Dave [00:00:15] Norton and Aransas Savas. 

Aransas: Welcome to the experience strategy podcast. I'm Aransas Savas 

Dave: and I'm Dave Norton.

Aransas: And today we are joined by our friend, Brian Anderson, who we worked with in our latest round of the [00:00:30] experience strategy collaboratives. Brian came to us from the Sierra club where he's the director of national outings. And if you don't know the Sierra club, it is. The most historic grassroots environmental organization in the U S [00:00:45] and for more than 130 years, they've gathered literally millions of activists and volunteers to advocate for places, people, and the planet.

So working with Brian [00:01:00] to understand the power and the potential. Of guiding transformational travel for the Sierra club was so meaningful and exciting for us. And we're so excited to have Brian join us today [00:01:15] to share how he sees the future of the Sierra club. What he sees as the potential for transformational travel and what he and his team are doing it to bring relevance and value to [00:01:30] a really, really old organization that has had a tremendous impact and wants to continue to increase relevance and market share and [00:01:45] impact for the future.

Hopefully for another 130 years. Brian, we're so glad to have you with us. 

Brian: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Really excited to be here and love all the work that I've done with you all in the transformational collaborative and it's been a lot of [00:02:00] fun and just getting to know both of you and all the work that everyone is doing in kind of that transformational experience.

It's really cool that it's not just a travel piece. In my world, it is, but in general, how that [00:02:15] it's something new that I'm experiencing and really loving that idea. 

Aransas: Yeah, I think there is such a value in talking to people across sectors [00:02:30] about Transformation, because we start to understand the human being who is experiencing transformation on a very different level.

And we should really talk about that today, but before we get into it, for those who aren't [00:02:45] mega fans of Sierra club, like Dave and I give a little bit of a primer into what Sierra club is known for and, and what they're doing right now. 

Brian: Definitely. Well, as you. [00:03:00] Talked about a Ramses, the idea that we've been around for 130 years.

And what we really like to base what we came out of is joy on that. We really came out of the idea of loving and [00:03:15] exploring into nature. And there are different organizations that do a lot of great environmental work, but some of that is out of necessity, which is sad, but a lot of what [00:03:30] we are. Sure. It's definitely necessity, but where we started was joy in these high Sierra camps up in the Sierra Nevada, and just really getting people outside to love nature and [00:03:45] just be away from all of it.

And that's a big part of it is that from there now 130 years, we're still trying to do the same thing, is how do we have that joy? How do we make sure that people get out and see that we are [00:04:00] inundated more and more now with screens. We all have phones and work and everything. So a big push that we're doing is, Hey, how do you get outside?

How do you get out of that screen time? And also, [00:04:15] how do we start to be that agent of change? And I think that this was a new term to me. This transformational travel was a new term to me when I started with experience strategy, but it makes so much sense. It's the purpose of [00:04:30] travel, right? Sometimes we take vacations, we lay on the beach, we download and just take some time off.

But there's this other section of travel that is very transformational. That's the purpose of it. [00:04:45] It's that, what am I going to do different after I am done with this trip? And I think that Sierra Club specifically is very uniquely positioned to do that. And what the [00:05:00] transformation that we're helping people with is that environmental aspect that conservation aspect that when you come out of our trips, you will have more knowledge, more empathy, more thought process of the area that you [00:05:15] just traveled to and want to conserve, want to save and think about it as there's no, no planet B that we have got to make action now.

And it's not just for [00:05:30] that one specific beautiful place that you travel to, but it's the whole world. And so when we do trips all over the world, it's still that idea of we have one world and how is that what we're doing in each [00:05:45] every destination that we go to really resonating and coming home with you to make a transformational movement once you're home.

And we're uniquely positioned to say, Oh, and here's what you can do next to help with conservation and [00:06:00] environmentalism. 

Aransas: That's very cool. That's very cool. And what is your role as director of national outings? 

Brian: That's a great question. All of our trips, we run 250 to 350 trips each [00:06:15] year. And the unique part about the history of Sierra Club is.

Those trips are run by volunteers. So you can volunteer to run that trip. All of our trips come out of the minds of our [00:06:30] volunteers. As the director, I'm not dictating, hey, Aransas, this volunteer has to go to Grand Canyon and lead this trip. It's, I, as a volunteer, love the Grand Canyon. I love this area. I want to show [00:06:45] other people.

And that passion, that love for that area, really makes it An astounding trip in that accord. It's not what you have to do. It's where you already love something and [00:07:00] really want to show other people. So as the director in my role, I'm making sure that my staff and all of those volunteers have. Happy, safe, and inspired trips that we're really making sure that [00:07:15] all of the safety management plans, everything that we need, budgets are on point.

We want to make them cost effective to all the participants, all those things. So it's really overseeing that, but also I feel like [00:07:30] I'm this driving force of what does it mean to be transformational? What does it mean to live as an outdoor travel program? Inside the Sierra club. We're almost a, [00:07:45] another business inside of business, right?

Because we're running all these trips. And how are we making sure that our environmental conservation message is coming through on every single trip? And how are we making sure that that [00:08:00] comes back to the Sierra Club and really works with it so that that group travel to is their next season, or in 10 years, or in 20 years, or in 100 years, and we have different campaigns.

So there's this [00:08:15] other side of Sierra Club, these campaigns. And so, if we're trying to make Dolores Canyon in Colorado, a new national monument, a trip there will really resonate with you on just, oh yeah, this is a special place. And [00:08:30] we need to save that, and we are doing work on that right now. And it's not just, oh, sign this petition.

We have a whole nother set of staff that is working on getting that area designated a national  . So [00:08:45] it's really unique, and so making those connections are really a part of what I'm trying to work towards, is how do we make sure that Sierra Club as a whole is really uplifting all of that, be it an outing.

Or a [00:09:00] campaign even though I don't work in campaigns. How do we make sure that we get that support and That Dolores Canyon in Colorado is one example of a dozen that we're working on just this year. Next year, there's more [00:09:15] and then more. 

Aransas: Would you say that that is the most urgent and important challenge that you're tackling as an experienced strategist right now?

Brian: I would say somewhat, you know, right now, the Sierra Club is just in this idea and in this phase of how do [00:09:30] we two times our public lands? How do we double public lands? And is that the local park near you? Is that a national park? Is that a state park? We're just moving out there to be like, how do we get more public [00:09:45] land in order to get more access for more people?

And really just, does it matter where it is? Not as much as just how do we get access? How do we open up more? Is [00:10:00] it Chuckwalla and the lands adjacent to Joshua Tree National Park? Or other places here in Colorado, in Oregon, New Mexico, we've got all kinds of different places. So I think that that's the [00:10:15] experience strategy is that next after the trip is really a big focus.

Aransas: I love that. And I think I want to hand the mic over to Dave for just a second as our futurist and as [00:10:30] the, the author of the upcoming, the experienced strategist book. I'm, I know one of the things you advocate for, for experienced strategist, Dave, and something that we really focus on in the collaboratives is creating a strong point of [00:10:45] view.

And so I'm curious what questions you would. be thinking of were you in Brian's seat, or that you would challenge him to think about, to ask within his organization to really [00:11:00] strengthen that point of view on some of these challenges. 

Dave: First of all, it's a real privilege to talk with an organization that has such a tremendous purpose, um, understands their purpose, has lived their purpose [00:11:15] over a hundred and how, how many years, 130 years.

It's amazing. And we're just thrilled to have you guys in the collaboratives, uh, with us working on, on these things. There's a [00:11:30] couple of things that I want to note one first, there's the transformation of the individual. And you talked about that and really to some degree, Brian, that's kind of your focus because you're taking people on trips.

And I think I mentioned [00:11:45] on the podcast before that the first tourism. Experience that was created was created by Thomas Cook and it was supposed to be about transformation. He was a teetotaler, didn't believe in [00:12:00] alcohol and he was trying to get British people out of pubs. And so he set up these little tours and had them go visit other cities and stuff like that.

So it was all about kind of change, personal change and expanding [00:12:15] your horizons and so forth. But then there's the second part of what you're doing, which is helping the world and protecting our natural resources. [00:12:30] And that kind of transformation is also a big part of what we hear a lot of the other travel companies focused on as well.

The two things are linked together, and I think that's really fascinating. You know, if you were to do the same [00:12:45] thing with healthcare, healthcare is a transformational category, right? We can think about the transformation of the individual from sick to healthy, but then we can also think about the transformation of the healthcare [00:13:00] system.

Thank you. And are we doing both at the same time? That's what's so amazing about transformational travel is that it does both at the same time. Financial industry, also a transformational category. [00:13:15] You know, you want to help people move from not having financial assets to having financial assets. While we're making that transformation, are we also making it.

Happened in such a [00:13:30] way that the wealth is spread across those that need it the most. That's a fascinating thing to really think about. Um, but you, but in travel, you just do it naturally. It's just a natural part [00:13:45] of, at least for organizations like the Sierra Club to do. So I, I really, um, I'm really impressed with, What,  uh, transformational travel is all about.

I think [00:14:00] when it comes to having a point of view, the Sierra club has always had a point of view. And part of the reason I can say that is because it's not just a cause it is. You're looking to the [00:14:15] future, the near future need of people. People will need, there's going to be more people and more people are going to need more access to public spaces.

How can we [00:14:30] prepare for the future so that we preserve The things that are going to matter most and that's that's your point of view. If somebody doesn't buy into that point of view, then it's fine. There's probably other organizations that they can work with other [00:14:45] travel companies that they can work with, but that differentiates you.

And. You've stayed true to that over years and years. And a big part of what you do is advocacy for public [00:15:00] lands. So you very much have that point of view element, which I think is so important. And the other thing I talk about is it predates the brand. It's pre, [00:15:15] um, it, it exists before the brand of the Sierra Club brand, which is also really, really important.

It's not just a brand strategy that can be changed. It's, it's very [00:15:30] much associated with the purpose of the organization. So great stuff that you guys are doing. Just, just really impressed. 

Brian: That's awesome. Thank you 

Dave: so much. 

Aransas: So as you listen to what Dave is [00:15:45] saying there, and as an experienced strategist who is eager to make a difference within the organization and for the organization, what feels most important for you to [00:16:00] understand or advocate for within the organization?

Brian: Within the organization, I'm working a lot on How we work in totality, right? How do we note that this [00:16:15] experience, that this travel is appealing and it's going to bring people in, but then how do we make sure that we continue with good engagement with targeted engagement [00:16:30] and things that I've learned from the collaborative of some technology pieces that we're trying to work on building and stronger, how great would it be?

To go on a Grand Canyon backpacking trip and then directly after [00:16:45] there's a follow up from a campaign that says, Hey, Dave, thank you so much for doing that trip. Hope you had a great time. Here's what we're working on as conservation in that area and those kind of aspects that really keep [00:17:00] engagement going in that bespoke way, right?

In that 1 on 1 individual that you are on this trip and this is the campaign. Versus email after that's like engage more with this year. Yes. [00:17:15] That's a great message too, but how do we make sure, especially with the travel individuals that we can go, you were here and this is what we can work on. And I think some of that also is trying to wrap my brain around.

[00:17:30] What does that look like? If you lived in Florida and did a Grand Canyon trip, do you want to work on In Arizona, or do you want to work on things in Florida where you live, or maybe you did a [00:17:45] trip to Nepal? Okay, so what does that look like when you come back to home in Florida? How do you want to be engaged?

So one thing that I've learned also is how to think about how we're engaging that person [00:18:00] and getting information from them on how they want to be engaged. So that we can start creating that personal experience that I matter. And it's specific to me that the Sierra club sees that I [00:18:15] did that trip, but I really want to help out my vocal community.

So that kind of idea of moving forward with that engagement and really trying to be specific on that idea. Hey, you went to the grand [00:18:30] Canyon. Have you been to bear's ears? Maybe. You know, one month before your birthday, we're like, you know, it'd be great. A birthday trip to who bears ears, those kinds of really specific things that we're getting to know people.

Yeah. 

Aransas: And it'd [00:18:45] be interesting too, to think about how that changes over time. So maybe in the immediate moment after the trip, maybe what they want to do is donate a bunch of money and resources to Nepal. Because [00:19:00] they've fallen madly in love with Nepal and Nepal has given them a transformative experience.

And so they, they feel a sense of commitment to Nepal. And then later when it's their birthday month, perhaps then it's an opportunity to say [00:19:15] like you have opportunities close to home. And those felt like really interesting tests and learns. And I'm such a big fan of isolating variables like that and running tests.

To see what [00:19:30] your customer cares about. And I think to your point of aligning the organization, that's really the central insight. is what do our customers care about? What do our volunteers and our tour, our travelers care about? And being the [00:19:45] source of wisdom on that for the entire organization is a core function of your role.

And so to,  to validate that both through. Asking customers, uh, before, during and after what do you care about, [00:20:00] but also running some tests to demonstrate behaviorally what they show they care about. I think those are both really powerful positions. 

Dave: You lead up a lot of our transformational work. As I think about what Brian is trying to do there, one of the, one of the things [00:20:15] that I know you talk a lot about If the customer has gone through a transformation, how do you sustain that transformation?

How do you keep it going? You're talking, Brian, about the post experience. I'm a big [00:20:30] believer still that if you want people to keep going, You set up milestones for them. So does your first trip become a milestone? And then you get to establish what is the next, um, [00:20:45] thing that happens and so forth so that it reinforces that I've got to sustain this journey.

new mindset that I've developed around different places that I've been to. [00:21:00] So that's one idea, Brian, that there's something about milestoning that causes reflection and encourages commitment to the next stage, because you got to get to milestone [00:21:15] two, instead of saying you had a moment, that was a special moment, which is brilliant.

backward looking memory building. That's all great, but milestones have the ability to kind of keep you moving forward as well. So [00:21:30] that was the first thing that ran through my mind as you guys were kind of talking, what are your thoughts there, Rancis? 

Aransas: Well, the, the first thing I was thinking about really is the fact that we recently did research with a large number of industry leaders about [00:21:45] transformational travel.

And so we really were talking to the big guys at the big companies. And they all got it, that transformational travel was a huge opportunity. They all got that [00:22:00] they could do better. They all understood that it was valuable to extend that relationship and to deepen that sense of transformation over time.

And yet almost [00:22:15] none of them were able to do it. And They weren't able to in large part because they weren't prioritizing it, but also because they were having trouble aligning their organization around it. And to me, that was such a striking thing to hear [00:22:30] because it is It's really, in some ways, such a simple thing to do.

It's applying marketing techniques, essentially, it's relationship building techniques, to extending a relationship. And so instead of thinking [00:22:45] about relationship building as something that happens on the, and the purchase cycle. In the front end. It is something that happens on a retention cycle. Um, and so I think that's really like, we have the resources, we have teams, we [00:23:00] have, uh, the technology in many cases.

We're not necessarily at, we don't know how to do it. We don't know the right questions to ask, but we have all the resources within organizations. And I think it's an experience strategy lens that's needed in order to [00:23:15] enable and empower those highly skilled. Often highly data led teams to kill it at retention.

Dave: I love that. You know, it's funny how many different [00:23:30] experience based companies out there, uh, are very much focused on their entire business model is focused on the front end. Acquisition. And they spend very little time on the back end, [00:23:45] and it's in large part because they don't get paid for the back end.

They don't get paid for what happens after. So it becomes an afterthought. So you go on a cruise, which I know is kind of the opposite of what Sierra Club's all about, but [00:24:00] you go on a cruise, and what happens after the cruise, Maybe they're trying to sign you up for another cruise, but they're not really helping you get to that next place, [00:24:15] like what you're trying to describe, Brian.

The same phenomenon happens in health care. You go to the doctor, you visit, the entire business model is set up for the doctor visit. After the doctor visit, you [00:24:30] still have lots of things that have to happen, recovery and so forth, but the doctor is not set up. to actually support you. They don't get paid for it, so how can they?

It's kind of an almost unfair thing to [00:24:45] ask, you feel like. So 

Aransas: And you think it would be the insurance companies that would want to pay doctors to do that. 

Dave: Correct. And, and, and you would think that when it comes to travel, that retention is kind of a key thing. Once you've [00:25:00] sampled the trip, then of course you're going to want to go to Bears Ear.

next or something along that line. I think your problem, Brian is, is a common problem, but I love this idea, Rancis, that [00:25:15] you, you described that, you know, we have CRM tools. We have all of these different, we have messaging. We just sometimes need to focus our energy on how to deliver the right [00:25:30] messaging, going back to what you're saying.

And then. Do some A B testing to see what works and what doesn't to really at least keep them interested in the next trip. And maybe that leads to some additional [00:25:45] offerings. Eventually that are maybe digital or something else where they're willing to support an individual who lives in one of these locations or something along that line.

I'm just making stuff up at this point, but [00:26:00] there may be other revenue opportunities as well for the organization. 

Aransas: A body in motion stays in motion. 

Dave: Yeah. 

Brian: That's a great point. And you know, to your doctor example of who, who is it, the next person that should [00:26:15] follow up with someone who leaves the doctor's office.

Is it a pharmacist? Is it a nurse? Is it an RN? Like who are the people and is there a job for that? And I'll bring it back then to Sierra Club of [00:26:30] yes, we have the travel and then we have people whose job is to engage with the general public and our members in order to engage in that next step. And a little of it is just like that doctor, just [00:26:45] trying to think of how campaigns and national outings, you know, really work together.

And as we bring people in, what is the next piece? Um, some people have those blinders on of [00:27:00] that. When you're working, you've got your job, you've got your things to do. And. I think that's in every organization, not just the Sierra Club, but it's that you need to work on that relationship building of how are [00:27:15] we going to make sure that it's a conscious, supportive, good transition from a national outing to working with a campaign, and then back to a national outing and back to a, Oh, what's my next trip?

In [00:27:30] order to support so it's all about just how we're engaging consistently with that person, you know, the way that you were talking about Dave instead of, hey, I set up my appointment. I went on that appointment and I'm all better now. So I won't see my doctor until I [00:27:45] need the next appointment. It's how do we make sure that we're consistently doing that engagement instead of, oh, I went on a trip next year.

I'll go on a trip again, those type of pieces. 

Aransas: I love that. And, and going back to Dave's question earlier [00:28:00] about what came up in response to his idea about milestones and, and both of us of course are making recommendations based on no customer data. And, and so I'm going to make that point very clear that these are just ways of [00:28:15] thinking.

that sometimes emerge from customer insight. And so I don't know what your traveler really values, but something that can work very well and, and I think may have some [00:28:30] potential for you guys is to think about the identity based transformation. And. What these people have contributed to as a result of their travel and what it means for them.

And so we offer an [00:28:45] experience strategy certification. Well, part of that, of course, is to teach people how to be really good experience strategist. It's also to give them the self identification as experience strategist. Well, that labeling, labeling can be very unhelpful. It can also be very [00:29:00] helpful. It can give us a sense of credibility and confidence and desire to keep moving forward.

And so I think there are actually some interesting opportunity in here in terms of how you label people on a, and it can be associated with milestones in terms [00:29:15] of a first trip, in terms of making donations or becoming an activist for the place that they traveled or the place that they live. Right. And so how we think about engaging those people as.

An identity [00:29:30] based part of the mission that is in its own way, a transformation. And certainly if that's what people want is they want to be seen and known as people who care about people, places, [00:29:45] planet, then let's label them people who care about people, places, planet, and let them own that and proudly wear the hat.

Brian: A lot of it is. Some of why Sierra Club is still membership based. You're joining that membership. You're joining that [00:30:00] collective, joining that collaboration of, hey, we're saying in a voice from the Sierra Club that we want change, that we need change, that all of the other examples, uh, of, [00:30:15] Healthcare and finance and everything else would not exist if we don't have a thriving, healthy planet to live on.

And those kinds of pieces that were this base level of need [00:30:30] before you get to all of those other needs that need to be met. And that's, I think, a big part of it as well is that, hey, our members are often stating that they came on a outing. [00:30:45] Because of like minded people and the message and what they want to accomplish.

Aransas: And there is a social proof aspect that, that can't be underestimated in terms of what that means in the outside world beyond that inner [00:31:00] circle, who they, how they want to be known in the world, uh, and the legacy they want to leave behind. And as we've done research on transformation. Legacy is a huge piece of people's conscious and unconscious mindsets around change.

[00:31:15] And certainly that is true when we do research about finances and how people think about, uh, leaving or receiving wealth and wealth, of course, comes in all sizes, uh, but it's so [00:31:30] much about being remembered. And being known for something. And I think there's a big opportunity there to play on what we've talked about here on in past episodes or regret lotteries and creating a [00:31:45] sense of obligation to the future.

And it's something, you know, the category's done, uh, certainly the environmental category, I think has made some great strides in getting people to think about the future, but to think about what's in it for my present [00:32:00] self. If I help the future. So it's an interesting present future, uh, play. Uh, anyway, I think there's so much exciting stuff to be done here.

I want to try to synthesize some of this though, as we start to wrap [00:32:15] up, I guess the, the best synthesis I can do really is that for organizations like yours, which world changing impact. [00:32:30] And certainly over an extremely long period of time, you've endured way more changes than any of us have, right? Like as an organization, it has outlived.

Every human being on the planet. [00:32:45] And so it's endured and it's been able to, to weather those tides. And we're on a fast moving train with constant and steady state change in terms of our interconnectedness, [00:33:00] our disconnectedness, our reliance on technology, our relationship to people, places, and planet, and.

Thanks. I think what we hear [00:33:15] above all of this conversation is that for you, Bryan Anderson, Director of National Outings for Sierra Club and for Sierra Club as a total organization, the big opportunity is to say, for this [00:33:30] context, where we are now in the world, how do we have the most impact? And I think the answer to that we're all saying is transformational travel.

It is being really [00:33:45] good at something that Most organizations that are trying are not doing a very good job of. And so you're going to get great at transformational travel. You're going to build these long term sustainable relationships and that's going to [00:34:00] continue to differentiate you to drive relevance so big for an older organization and most importantly to drive value.

And that's all going to stem from that strong POV. On transformational travel and so it's just for us [00:34:15] such a thrill to collaborate with you on this. We're so excited to continue to do more of this work together and we're invested in Sierra Club as we all should be as human [00:34:30] beings on this planet. And so we're really grateful for all the energy and creativity and passion.

You're putting it into this work, Brian, and really excited to keep working with you. 

Brian: Thank you so much. I'm [00:34:45] excited to work with you all and really. We need to, we need a trip, right? I mean, that's what stems from this, that where are we going? Dave, what are we doing? I got lots of, um, lots of ideas, lots of places.

Where can we go? [00:35:00] 

Aransas: Listen in for the next episode where we announce our trip with Sierra Club. 

Brian: Right. We're reporting live from the field. 

Aransas: Dave, Dave's looking nervous. He's, I see like nervous giggles. 

Dave: [00:35:15] Well, 

Aransas: we can't wait, Brian. Thank you for being here. Dave, thank you as always for your insights. Those of you who listen to the Experience Strategy Podcast, we're so grateful to you.

Please share this [00:35:30] episode with another experienced strategist. I want to challenge you to help spread the word about Good experience strategy. There's plenty of bad experience strategy. I don't think we need to circulate that or normalize it any [00:35:45] further. So if you'll help us by. Spreading these podcasts.

This is our way of socializing some of the ideas that we use in our work with our clients, uh, and making them broadly [00:36:00] accessible to companies of all shapes and sizes. So we would really appreciate it. If you pass this on to one, two, three of your friends who are in marketing or C suite or [00:36:15] experience strategy to get the word out and help raise awareness and excitement about the power and potential of experience strategy.

Thank you most of all for listening and being with us on this journey. 

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