The Experience Strategy Podcast: Disrupting Big Pharma With Patient Experience

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Veteran researcher and pharmacist Kevin Asher knows the pharmaceutical industry inside out. Today he joins us to discuss innovative digital solutions that were born during the pandemic, industry breakthroughs, and the patient data powering the most valuable patient experiences.

Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to the experience strategy podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts experienced nerds, Dave Norton and Aransas

Aransas: Savis. Um, did the experience strategy podcast I'm Aransas Savvis.

Dave.

Aransas: Today, we are going to look at how the pharmaceutical sector a. Category, frankly, which has been really slow to innovate has been disrupted by. Experience strategy thinking and the power of technology joining us today is Kevin Asher, a UK registered pharmacist. Who's spent the last 16 years in the pharmaceutical industry.

He's primarily worked in medical departments, focused on generating, interpreting and communicating clinical data. [00:01:00] And since 2019 has been focusing on how digital solutions can improve patient. And how those can collectively result in better communications with healthcare practitioners, super excited to take a more systemic look at how these can all work together to better serve patients.

Dave: You know, what's surprising about this particular interview is that Kevin is a brilliant person, but he really had no experience whatsoever with. Experienced strategy before he became a part of the collaborative program. We're going to talk a little bit about that and his experience as well. So I'm excited to visit with Kevin.

I think he'll bring an understanding to a lot of us outside of the category about what's actually going on in.

Aransas: Love it. Let's bring him in the room. Kevin, thank you so much for [00:02:00] joining us today. Wonderful. Thanks for having me. Absolutely, really excited to talk to you about how pharma is adapting the customer experience.

But before we get into that, just tell us a little about what you do.

Kevin: Yeah. So, uh, so I've been in the pharmaceutical industry for about 16 years now. Um, uh, my role is very much been on the scientific side. Uh, so how do we communicate? How do we generate data? How do we interpret data, uh, for the majority of that time, but spent the last couple of years really looking at digital solutions.

Um, and, and in particular, The recent years about how that improves sort of the experience for patients, the experience for doctors and how we engage with them.

Dave: Also a UK registered pharmacist. How did you make that transition from being a pharmacist, to being a scientist focused on educating people about.

Kevin: Yeah. Um, as, as often in careers by accident. Um, [00:03:00] so it's, uh, it was a, it was an area I wasn't aware of. Uh, I'd I'd had limited interactions with the pharmaceutical industry whilst I was in, uh, in practice in pharmacy. Um, and I wasn't even aware of the, everything that the pharmaceutical industry does. Um, I wasn't aware of the kinds of roles that were available to people.

So it was pure serendipity. Uh, I think my intention in my career plan was to spend one year, uh, learning a little bit, and that was 16 years

Dave: ago. Oh my God. Isn't it. That's amazing. The trajectory that you've been on and the things that you've seen in the pharma industry over the last 16 years, when you first entered into the pharma industry, how would you describe when you started working for big pharma?

How would you describe a typical pharmaceutical company was focusing.

Kevin: Yeah. So, um, so I did, and I joined a very reputable, big pharma at the time. I think, [00:04:00] um, the focus very much and the way they are even structured. And some of the companies are still structured today was very much focused around an individual brand or a, or a therapeutic area.

And so a collection of brands that sit within there. And so you've got these multiple different teams all focused in on how do we. Uh, really get the best out of that brand. Okay. So very, I would say brand product centric approach, uh, when I started 16 years ago. Um, and that was all the way from sort of developing it through its early stages.

Uh, in fact, discovering it even, uh, first, before it even goes into a lab. Um, and then moving on into sort of. Uh, studies in healthy volunteers, studies in patients with the disease, um, and then the pivotal studies to get FDA or EMA registration. Um, so it was very much drug focused, I would say. Um, at that time 16.

Dave: And, and what has changed over [00:05:00] the last 16 years?

Kevin: Yeah, I think there's been a, it hasn't fully changed across the whole of the industry, but I think there's definitely a recognition of more of a patient focus. Um, so what you're starting to see. There was that move away from sort of single assets, single products towards more of therapeutic areas, and then more to sort of really a patient focus to say, okay, what, what can we deliver for these patients?

Um, that would really benefit them. And so probably looking a little bit more holistically, um, for patients to say, what else could we bring for them that, that would really improve their, there may be dead life in terms of actually extending life or maybe it just, their quality of. Can you

Dave: describe some?

Yeah.

Kevin: Wonderful. Very good. Good, good. The line thinking. So I think so. I think what you'll start to see is that, so for say an oncology patient, [00:06:00] it's very standard. You would, you would have a chemotherapy or a single chemotherapy for that patient, but rather than just bringing a single chemotherapy for the patient, you may say actually, what.

Is going on with the patient. So we know chemotherapy may or the cancer itself may cause pain. It may cause, uh, nausea. It may cause vomiting. And so what you start to see is that you start to have a, a broader portfolio of, uh, of products that are brought to that patient so that you are really meeting the needs that they have rather than just that, that single asset for.

Dave: I get it. I get what you're describing. That makes total sense. We're good. We're going to make you throw up and we're going to solve your being. You're throwing up at the same time. That's that's pretty impressive. That's that is a major shift. Really? If you think about it to move away from a single brand focus to really trying to understand.

The therapy overall in [00:07:00] the United States. And I know you've done quite a bit of, uh, work both in the UK and in the United States. How do you see this transition towards therapeutic areas? Um, continuing to evolve going forward.

Kevin: I think it's guidance. I think it will continue. I think that the pace that you see within the pharmaceutical industry, it's not a rapidly changing, uh, area, but I think what you're starting to see, uh, and something I've been looking at most recently is sort of digital health solutions.

And how do you move beyond just giving people pills or injections into other digital solutions? So you'll see. Uh, from the news, some large collaborations between digital health companies, um, and pharmaceutical companies to really start to look at whether they be patient support, uh, applications, whether they be actual digital interventions.

Uh, I see in the U S we've got virtual reality has been a licensed by the FDA a couple of weeks ago, um, [00:08:00] for, for treatment of musculoskeletal pain. So you're starting to see. A little bit of a broadening of the approach, not thinking that there is a magic pill or a magic injection for many conditions, particularly in the chronic conditions.

Dave: Kevin, did you just say that the FDA approved virtual reality to be used to manage pain? Is that what I just heard you say?

Kevin: And that, that is indeed what you just heard me say. Um, so yeah. Yeah, two weeks, two weeks ago. I think it was two weeks ago. It's a company called applied VR. Uh, it's the first, uh, uh, prescription, uh, treatment for, for chronic pain.

Um, and so I think, uh, globally, we now have about nearly 30 digital therapeutics that have been approved through regulatory bodies for improving patient. Now. Can

Aransas: you tell us any more about it? It's super fascinating.

Kevin: I could sit here for hours and hours. So, you know, I think there's, [00:09:00] um, what we're starting to see with those students.

So there's, there's a dry from the FDA. There's a drive within Germany. There's a drive here in the UK towards. Well, how can we improve patient care through, through digital solutions? Um, and so what we have seen is that there is a good place for digital interventions, particularly when it comes to things like behavioral change.

Um, so. Behavioral therapy. That's a big area. And there's a number of the solutions of looking in that space. Um, we know that within health care that, uh, you can't always access, uh, as you need to, from a mental health perspective, uh, the right healthcare professionals when you need them. Um, and so that's where we're probably seeing that the biggest growth of digital solutions is in that space.

Uh, you're able to access something remotely. That's able to give you some. Education, some training and, and there's, there is now a pathway for approval of them. And in some countries there's a pathway [00:10:00] to reimbursement for them.

Aransas: Wow. What's inspiring pharma to make the chefs after sort of approaching things the same way for a really long time.

Kevin: Yeah. So I think, um, it's, it's multifactorial. Okay. I think what we're we're seeing as a pharmaceutical industry is the days of a single blockbuster drug are probably over. Um, there's, there's very few of them left. I think we're seeing of these digital startups. There's, there's a lot of capital out there.

That's, that's being invested in them, uh, with good valuations and definitely you'll see some of the larger pharmaceutical companies. They've got a real digital agenda. They recognize. Th this is the future, um, for healthcare, um, and want to be part of it. Um, being established players in the, in, in the healthcare arena, um, they want to, to, to be forward-thinking and they [00:11:00] want to be part of this journey.

I think probably what's really triggered at all. Was most companies have recognized that there is power in big data. So, um, how do we collect a lot of. Large amounts of data to be able to analyze it, but it particularly, how do we collect real world evidence of how drugs benefit patients, um, all cost side effects that it may be both, um, in the real world, because when we run a clinical trial, it's very, very controlled.

It's a very controlled environment. It's very selected patients by the time you then go out into the community and, uh, using the product in real life, the companies have recognized that the collection of that real world evidence. It's very unimportant. And so I think that's been a trigger for people to think digitally, to think about data, how we can utilize data in a better way.

Um, and, and has really been for, for a number of the companies that sort of trigger for, for us moving forward in terms of, uh, expanding into a [00:12:00] digital space.

Dave: I think it's so fascinating the way that, uh, the farming, uh, category works, we've done a little bit of work in the category. Holy cow, you have a lot of constraints on you in terms of what you can and cannot do pretty much.

Anything that you give away for free is banned, right? Any service that could somehow affect the doctor, patient relationship is frowned upon. You have a lot of. Hurdles that you have to overcome. If you're going to support the customer, the patient in a more holistic way. Um, I I'm frankly surprised that governments are being as helpful as they are, because for the most part, they have kind of a, a really negative view of the category.[00:13:00]

Can you talk a little bit about what you're seeing from that standpoint?

Kevin: Yeah. So I'm deaf. I think it depends on where we, we look at within the space. So we are definitely still exceptionally controlled, um, within interaction. So certainly outside of the U S it's pretty much zero interactions between pharmaceutical companies and patients directly when we're talking about prescribed medication.

Um, and that causes. Hurdles in terms of being able to ensure that we are able to support patients and that we are able to communicate effectively, um, the facts around, around drugs. So that's definitely continues to be a hurdle. Um, I would say that what I'm seeing with regulatory agencies is that they haven't quite opened up.

Two changes to really fully reflect that digital communications part of, uh, of the engagement, but they're certainly starting to consult on it. So there's definitely a recognition that we are [00:14:00] needing to, to move forward in that space. I think when it comes to the digital health solutions, we've got, there are large investments in these companies.

And so I think there's been a slightly. Different, uh, evaluation by the regulators, recognizing that they need to get on top of this. They can't not get on top of what is a real trend happening. And it, and it started very much, I would say, within applications that were more in the consumer space. So if you.

Um, look at sort of calm as, as an app or Headspace as another app. That's, that's been utilized very broadly and have shown that they are very effective for patients. So I think a lot of this started in the consumer space and is now moving into that sort of more medical. And

Dave: it's not just a calm and new room and so forth, but it's also apple and Google and Amazon and, and everyone else from that standpoint that, uh, one of the things that I most interested in.[00:15:00]

Uh, what's going on with hearing aids right now, where they have been highly regulated and really that regulation has been used to make it so that they're frankly not very accessible to consumers. Well, we see some movement there from a regulatory standpoint where people are going to be able to access.

I think hearing aids and not have sticker shock every time that they need to get ahold of one. So there's some dramatic things that are happening in, in this category. And I think sometimes people who are outside of the category don't understand just how difficult it is. Pharma companies have a role to play.

Um, insurance providers have a role to play. At least in the United States hospital systems have a role to play, and those roles are Barry Barry defined by the government. You can't [00:16:00] move out of those particular roles without affecting the entire healthcare system. And, and yet technology doesn't really behave that way.

Yeah, it really doesn't. It gives you the consumer complete access to so much more information in order for the data to actually be useful. It has to transfer. It has to go from one place to another. And if you set up hurdles around that, you're actually making the patient experience worse. So. It's a very, very different paradigm, uh, that, uh, I think everyone within healthcare is struggling with right now.

And pharma in particular is, uh, struggling around it. What should we, what role should we be playing in? Um, patients' lives that we can play and so forth. [00:17:00]

Kevin: Yeah, I think you raise a very good point. It's uh, it's fascinating talking to the insurers, talking to the healthcare providers. Even the way we think about patients and it's the same patient is very different.

And I think that's slightly built into what you've described, which is that regulatory framework that, that purpose that we've been set up to do. And yeah, it's very tough to. Cross those barriers, um, either from a regulatory perspective or from a, an inertia from an organization perspective, I think there's, there's a huge, huge opportunity in, in sharing patient data.

Now it's probably making the patient, the owner of that data that they can then choose to share it with the people that, that appropriate, but that is a route to improve improved outcomes and improve patient.

Dave: Some people might ask themselves the question. Why would pharma need to know data about patients on using their product?

How would you [00:18:00] respond to them? Uh, why is it important that.

Kevin: So I think the, the benefits that, that we get to, and it's not about knowing individual patient details, because that's really not what we're after from an industry perspective, it is more a population level. Um, as I mentioned, so you can, you can bring a drug to market with, I dunno, maybe a thousand patients exposed to that drug, uh, through all of its development stages.

If you've got a side effect or you've got some attitude with the drug that happens. Yeah. Say a hundred thousand patients. The likelihood that you'll pick that up is one and a hundred. So you've got a 1% chance of picking that up as you've run your studies. So there is an element of seeing population level data about how drugs are being used that may lead to improvements.

Um, so what you frequently see, uh, within the pharmaceutical sector is there may be an originator drug and then there'll be a second generation third, generally. Et cetera. So [00:19:00] utilizing that data about the effectiveness, the side effects, how best to use it. I think that's, that's one way that, that you'll start to see really, uh, an improvement in terms of how the products perform, uh, in the market for patients.

Um, and then I think probably the other area. W w it's a very nascent at the moment it's not really developed. Um, hugely, we still are in a position where you get standard dosing. It may be dose slightly differently for children. It may be those slightly differently if your, your kidneys function slightly differently, but generally we have standard one to, to three doses for any medication.

And I think one of the benefits that we will really see for the future, and there's very little solutions. So looking at this at the moment, but it's that real personalization of how do I, as an indigenous. Respond to that medication. And if I did something different, like took it with food or took it three hours before I went to bed, rather than just as I went to bed, would I have a better outcome?

And I think that's where you [00:20:00] start to have that, that data collection and processing where you can really use data to improve the, the patient's outcomes.

Dave: That type of personalization, that type of individualization is really, really, again, another paradigm shift, because we're not used to thinking about medication as being that specific or specifically designed for us.

Kevin: No, I think it's, it's a big paradigm shift. And I think when you, you have a look at the effectiveness of many of the medications, we know that there's a large number of medications can't be used because either the efficacy, how they work isn't isn't good enough for that patient. Doesn't quite treat them.

Or the side effects are just a, a run manageable by the patients. And it's very hard to predict. Patient to patient as to what, what would be the right dosing, what would be the right approach for that patient to really maximize the effectiveness and, and, [00:21:00] and the therapy and, and to limit the side effects.

Um, so it's a, it's a big goal to get to. And as I say, we're not quite there yet, but I can see a future where we really do have that in delight individualized therapy, uh, for each patient. And it will be. As I said simple things like at what time of the day do I take it? Or is it with food or without food?

Aransas: Yeah. One of the things that we've been interested in in the past is how this data is being shared across companies and how data is being leveraged. Um, one pharmaceutical company to another to ensure that whatever insights are gained. Can be maximally used. Are you seeing any progress in terms of data sharing there?

I know historically there's been some, some careful hold on that

Kevin: data. Yeah, it's still very limited. I would say. Um, there's been some partnerships where [00:22:00] certainly from a clinical trial data perspective. Um, a number of the pharmaceutical companies have said, look for, for the good of humanity for want of a better term, uh, in treating this.

And it tends to be in the cancer space. Um, they have shared because the way that the pharmaceutical industries normally share their data, it's in a, in a finely polished manuscript that goes to, to, uh, Um, what you don't normally get to see because it's kept internally is the war data. So normally it's only sort of regulators that, that get to see the world data.

What happened a few years ago was that a number of companies came together and they said, look, let's pull together all of everything we've learned. So really the raw data so that other researchers can come in and utilize that data. Um, uh, really interrogate the data, uh, and, and test hypotheses and continue to further the improvement.

So you have started to see it. I would say it's still pretty rare across the industry in terms of, of, of sharing that level of impact. [00:23:00]

Dave: I think that they, uh, in your own backyard, there's a tremendous data, a resource in the UK biobank. Is that right? I mean, that's one of the top, um, standards, uh, uh, banks of data out there and L all countries kind of tap into the UK biobank.

It's very fascinating.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think the, so we're getting down into, into some real science fiction here. That's actually become science fact, but the concept that you could sequence your own genome to work out a which, which diseases you're going to have, and then what therapies would be best for you based off of possibly doing a microbiome test of your, your gut bacteria is, is all.

As much as I think it's science fiction, I can definitely see that it could happen in the future because we've got the technology there to be able to do it. I don't think we quite got enough data to be able to [00:24:00] interpret it, but that's definitely where you're going with that, with that biobank. And, uh, as I said on the, on the gut flora, uh, it's fascinating just to have a look and just to see how much that affects.

Aransas: It does sort of bring up the question, you know, as much as the, the restrictions are important, um, how much learning we're missing with these restrictions in place before we go down that rabbit hole, though, I know you were at one point a member of the stone mantle collaboratives would love to hear a little bit about what that experience was like for you in the benefits, um, for the work that you're doing specifically around data collection.

Kevin: Yeah, no, no. So it's a very much was, was part of a collaborative, uh, I think it was back in, uh, the second half of, uh, 2019, uh, through to early 20, 20. Um, so really, really enjoyed it. So I think that's the, the, the, the starting point that I have it [00:25:00] really shaped. My thinking that I've taken forward. Um, and so that's pretty bold statement to make, but it was, it really challenged my thinking, having grown up in, in the pharmaceutical industry for the last 16 years talking.

And so the collaborative, we had payers there, we had other pharmaceutical companies there. We had, uh, providers there as well. Looking at things through the different lenses that each of these groups had and then undertaking, I think, and Dave can correct me if we're wrong. I think we undertook about research with about a thousand, uh, consumers of healthcare patients, whichever way we want to call them.

Um, Then seeing their perspective really shifted my thinking. Um, so, uh, yeah, definitely very valuable for me to, to participate that. And as I say, really sh really helped me as I've moved forward, uh, in both sort of my, my own personal life. I now judge everything from a consumer experience perspective, which makes me an awful [00:26:00] consumer.

Um, but equally from a as we're designing stuff with it within the organization, It's challenged me and I've challenged others to say, we're looking at this in the wrong way. Uh, that there's another way that we should be looking.

Dave: You were a part of the digital healthcare collaborative, which is one of the tracks that we have.

One of the programs that we have, and it is such a fascinating group of companies. Some of those companies have been in for years, been members of the program for years. It's a year long program. The that the companies go through where we use a lot of design thinking techniques and each year builds on previous years.

So whatever was learned in the past gets shared with the group going forward. I wonder as you came into the collaborative, what was your thinking around digital experiences and how did your thinking change after going through the collaborative [00:27:00] around digital experiences?

Kevin: Yeah, I think it was, I think I was well-versed coming in around sort of some of the digital solutions that have been rolled out and where we were moving, uh, from a.

From the ability and technology perspective. So I think I had a good grounding in now. I looked at machine learning. I'd looked at various other technologies, spoken to a number of people, attended a number of conferences. I think the bit I hadn't really considered. And again, it's probably a little bit like when I moved into the pharmaceutical industry going in with not.

With what I was signing up for. Um, I hadn't really spent much time and I think it, it, it it's true frequently within the pharmaceutical industry that we don't really think about that experience perspective. Um, now on the pharmaceutical side, we've started to see it happen from a, how we design clinical trials.

That's probably where we've seen the biggest, um, [00:28:00] Change, I would say over the last 10 years of really taking a patient perspective in terms of how we design a clinical trial, so that it is a good experience for them participating in it, this recognizing that we need to collect normally more data than you would have in, in clinical care.

Um, but I hadn't got so involved in that clinical trial design part of it before. So the whole. Even the basics hadn't even occurred to me, which was our healthcare journeys in, in standard modes are the patient meets with the doctor. That's sort of had been the starting point for most patient journeys.

And we through the collaborative, did some, some work really looking at three different kinds of patient journey. But first talking to the patients, one of the first things they're thinking about is. Who's going to look after my child, whilst I go to this appointment, how am I going to get to the appointment?

And who's going to bring me home afterwards. If I've had an intervention where I'm not safe to drive, so totally not ever captured in any patient journey that I'd seen [00:29:00] in it in the prior time, but really something that from a patient's perspective is very impactful, very meaningful for them and needs to be thought about in terms of a broader journey that, that patient.

Aransas: Really interesting stuff and really opens up a wealth of possibilities in terms of how different categories that have. Historically been focused on the experience for a wide range of reasons can begin to think about how some of these experience principles could really inform their, their service, their product and their bottom line.

So, Dave, as we started to wrap up here, what would you say are the experience strategy takeaways from this conversation?

Dave: I think that a lot of companies and a lot of, um, consumers have. Very little understanding of the power [00:30:00] that there is in pharma. And part of the reason for that is because pharma has a business model that it has been about the drug itself, that, that has driven a lot of what.

It has done, but Kevin, I get so excited when I think about the idea that the way all of the data that's been collected for years and years, about how bodies react to different chemical forms. Could actually be used by consumers to make their own personal health journey, so much more successful for them and to really customize and individualize it for them.

And I recognize the importance that regulatory bodies play in keeping people safe, protecting their privacy and so forth. But I really believe. That there has gotta be a better way for us to think strategically. [00:31:00] Curing about holistic delivery of services, about support for the big jobs that customers are trying to get done, like help me solve for my diabetes in general.

And so I think some of the things that are going on in pharma that you've described are, are wonderful. But as you said, Kevin, they're native. And we need to move faster. We just went through a pandemic and I'm sure the entire pharma industry is affected by the pandemic. Uh, just like everyone else probably it's been profitable for some companies.

We need better ways to really support people, uh, at an individual basis. And I love the fact that you're, you're, you're headed down that journey. We're glad you were a part of the collaborative because it gave, I [00:32:00] think it helped you think about those individual situations. Um, so that's kinda my key takeaways, the category as a whole, um, needs.

Be able to move forward, uh, in exactly the direction that you've described.

Aransas: I think it's probably true of all highly regulated categories. In fact, that there is an opportunity here, especially, and we've talked about this a lot on recent episodes. I think that the disruption of the pandemic, while it couldn't have been predicted, perhaps has opened up a lot of doors, particularly in healthcare to relax some of the, uh, Out of date regulations and modernize the patient experience and, and, you know, a Pinto.

Really powerful at lighting a fire under all of those

Kevin: opportunities. [00:33:00] I would just add into that. I think it's beyond just even the regulations. I think it's just challenging the status quo. Yeah. I think if you think about it, a virtual consultations, which have become far more prevalent than, than face-to-face consultations for many conditions.

Is absolutely perfect. Yeah. And that's a matter experience for the patient. So nothing changed. There was no new technology that came in, but in the UK here legislation changed so that it was enabled and it could still be paid. So I think that's, I think it's not just the regulations. I think it's challenging that status quo and challenging our assumptions has been a good thing.

Um, the other thing that I also felt like we've got this within the UK and I'm not sure we've got it elsewhere. It's now dinner conversation about which vaccine you had, because there's now three different vaccines available here in the UK for COVID. Yeah. So I've never known anyone. Really have that [00:34:00] conversation of that specificity around the vaccination or any other kind of medication.

Most people don't even know the names of the medication that they're on. So even just from an awareness perspective, I think that we've seen a change amongst patients, um, amongst well, Healthy consumers of healthcare, whichever way we wish to describe them. But I think that they're definitely the biggest failure that we'll have as a, as a industry and as a society will be, if we just allow things to fall back to the way they work, because there are some, some good bits.

I know that it's not been a great thing to have the pandemic, but there have been some good advances that we should really continue.

Dave: So

Aransas: true. Yeah, absolutely. That never waste a good crisis as they say. And this is certainly a moment for healthcare in general. To, to really take advantage of the moment and make the most of it for the future.

Kevin, thank you so much for joining us for sharing [00:35:00] your experience and insights. Excited to see what comes next as hopefully the pharma industry as a whole begins to. Move more closely toward the patient experience and service.

Kevin: Thank you. Bye.

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