The Experience Strategy Podcast: The Umami Strategy

February 01, 2022

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Experiences, like umami flavors, can be difficult to pin down. Both ideas transcend words, so how do you define them? How do you measure them? How do you help leaders and customers understand the value? In this episode, we are joined by Aga Szóstek, Ph.D. a strategic experience designer and author of "The Umami Strategy” as we discuss how to create experiences that are not just memorable, but powerfully impactful.

Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to the experience strategy podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts experienced nerds, Dave Norton and Aransas. Savis

Aransas: welcome to the experience strategy podcast. I'm Aransas Sabbath.

Today. We are joined by AGA she'll stay. She is a PhD and a strategic. Experience designer. She is the author of the umami strategy. Stand out by mixing business. With experience design August has spent the last two decades working at the forefront of combining design technology and business. And her approach has really inspired so many organizations to finally bet.

On experiences as their market differentiator when she's not consulting AGA designs, experiential tools, she calls seed cards. She hosts co-hosts [00:01:00] and incredible podcast called catching the next wave. And we are so excited to have her on the show because experiences like umami flavors can be really difficult to pin down both ideas.

I think often transcend words and it can be really difficult to define them in a way that is clearly understood. I mean, given that it's like, how do you measure them? How do you help leaders and customers understand the value? And so in this episode, AGA walks us through some of the principles and her really beautiful and compelling book.

And. Unpacks the, the rather difficult task of creating both impactful and memorable experience strategies. I go welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. So where are you? I always talk over people when they say [00:02:00] thank you back. Where are you joining us from

Aga: today? I'm Johnny you from Warsaw.

Wow.

Aransas: And yet you have written a book that is not in Polish. It's in English, right? Yes. That's true.

Aga: This is, I have been, uh, I, I had, uh, a mentor, like a writing mentor when I was writing the book because when I got the contract from beast publishing, Uh, and they said, okay, like, we are very interested in your proposal and we want to publish you.

I realized that, um, I had all those dreams about being a writer. However, I never wrote a book apart from my PhD, which is not something people enjoy reading, uh, ever. So I decided to look for a writing mentor and I contacted a British writers agency and I asked. Anyone would be interested in helping me, you know, basically put the book together and keep a good flow.

And I was hoping [00:03:00] to get a fiction writer for that. And actually I was super lucky. I got to work with, um, Morgan. Uh, she's amazing. Like really, she wrote a book, which is like a fiction book called besides myself. Uh, and, uh, and she also writes and edits for. Uh, the magazine design magazine. So she was actually quite interested in, uh, helping move this.

And, uh, she, when I was talking to her, she, she helped me write a book of course, or like, you know, rewrite the book. And, uh, when I was talking to her about this conundrum of being a polished person, writing in English, she said that this is actually the. I think for any writer not writing their own native language, because publishers don't know what to do with these kinds of people.

Aransas: Uh, that makes so much sense. So I wanna, I want to jump right into talking about your book. It has. One of the most unique titles of [00:04:00] any business book I've ever heard, you call it the umami strategy. And how did you choose that name?

Aga: Maka? Um, so when I. Initially thinking about the titles, uh, all the titles I came up with were this very, very boring academic titles that have, are like 20 words long.

Uh, have a perfect explanation. Nobody follows ever, uh, And it was actually talking to a few friends and they said like, Hey, this is not a book. This is not a title for a book that is going to be a business book. So like maybe you should reconsider. And, uh, and I love cooking. So basically I, I am a vegetarian, I cook a lot at home and I also follow.

Cooking courses, uh, and you know, like go to the trainings and so on and so forth. And at the time when I was thinking about the title, I actually had a, uh, course on vegan. [00:05:00] And we were going through like, how do you substitute eggs and milk and fish and meat and all these kinds of things. And at some point we had a whole discussion about the flavors and basically the basic discussion being there was about the mummy flavor, which is the fif flavor that, uh, that we experienced.

Although it's not a distinct one, it's, it's more like uplifting everything that, that we eat. So it tastes better. And then I was thinking. When I think about experience design in business, it's kind of the same story. Like with this umami flavors, like you have the, the sweet and the bitter and the salty and the.

Um, uh, dazed bats on the, on your, uh, on your tongue and very much with companies, you have your clients, you have your product, you have your employees, you have your, uh, business, uh, and they can function kind of super. Okay. But if you [00:06:00] add this fifth thing, this umami of design of experience design, suddenly everything.

It's just, you know, like surprisingly better, and this is like a motivation for the clients, for the customers, but it's also a motivation for the employees because when you're, when you know that you are designing solutions that are, um, that make people happier or more fulfilled or feel the better version of themselves.

Hi to work on this kind of project.

Dave: Right. I love that idea. And it's, so what's the word, obviously, fresh to talk about the fact that, you know, like we've been studying experiences for a long time and, uh, we work with companies on a regular basis and. I remember when we used to come in to work with companies, [00:07:00] there was the, they got just a little bit happier, uh, because they were focused on the, on the experience and it felt so different from, from everything else that they did in their daily lives.

And I sometimes think that companies have, I don't want to say destroyed it, but have made. Uh, working on it, customer experience, uh, not nearly as fun as it used to be. Um, there's something also about the way that you're talking about umami that reminds me of surprise and delight, which is a classic topic, inexperienced strategy.

What trove theater to, to focus on experience stress.

Aga: Um, so basically the topic of experience is something they've been working on. Since my PhD, I've been doing my PhD. I did my PhD at Eindhoven university of technology [00:08:00] at the industrial design department there. And we've been working on designing experiences for intelligence systems.

So basically, um, you know, we were trying to get. Uh, I, I was actually working on making people, uh, feel comfortable without working in a flow state without being interrupted too much. And how do you manage that? And the friend of mine, a very good friend of mine. Uh who was sitting next to me, like no desk to desk.

He was working on. Uh, trying to understand the experience, uh, cycle. Uh, he was trying to understand how the experience changes over time. And I remember at some point, I dunno, it was probably my second year of doing my PhD. He was sitting opposite to me and he looks at me and says like, Agha, what's the difference between experiencing an experience.

And I remember we didn't know the work of Daniel on. I'm not even sure now it must have already [00:09:00] been published, but we didn't bump into it at that stage yet. Uh, and we started having this, this, the, the discussion about like, okay, like how do we, do we design for people experiencing things or do we design for people remembering things?

And this is something that kind of triggered me to keep on thinking and reading about it over time. Uh, and, uh, during my PhD, I was using this for designing the different things, um, that I was developing. Then afterwards, I was working for the, uh, for intelligent lighting Institute and we, we worked a lot unexperienced there.

And then when I came to Poland, uh, I initially initially came to work as a researcher. Uh, but it turned out that Poland didn't. See experience design as an academic field at all. So I was a very quick quickly realizing that perhaps I am not going to get the opportunities to actually work on this from [00:10:00] the, from the more research perspective.

So I, uh, You know, basically I didn't have my choice and I, I, I was at some point like frustrated with my work and I basically quit my, uh, my, my job at the research Institute and the business called and they asked me, Hey, would you like to come and help us bring all this wonderful thinking of yours into, um, in, into our account.

So I started working with them. And so, you know, it was the time when, uh, the design process was very new for them. So I was really enjoying learning what business was all about because I was blissfully unaware of anything, anything that was business related. And, uh, and, uh, I was teaching them how to apply the design process to their, the way they were designing products and services and stuff like this.

Yeah. After some time I wanted to bring it to more strategic level. And, uh, I, I could [00:11:00] see that people were really excited about everything that I was talking about, but then it would die at some point. Like it was, uh, you know, it was just didn't didn't turn to anything bigger than just a bunch of projects, uh, radical projects, but however, only a bunch of project projects and, uh, At some point, I was talking to a CEO of this company.

Uh, it was, uh, uh, a telecom and I asked him, Hey, why. Why doesn't it work? Why aren't we getting further with this way of thinking? And he looked at me and he told me, you know, like I have my business school and finance school and I have my MBA and so on and so forth. And I, I know how to run a company based on financial KPIs, business KPIs.

I understand the HR and the employee experience. I kind of know how to deal with this, but everything that we are talking. To me about no matter how wonderful, wonderful it's [00:12:00] sounds it. I just don't know how to bring into the company. I don't understand how to put KPIs over it, how to put it together with different, uh, business goals that we have, how I don't know how to report it to our investors.

I just don't know. And I was looking at him and at that point I realized. Perhaps, instead of being angry at them, maybe I should write a book about it.

Aransas: Yeah. What a great solution. And I think that's what I love about your title, because umami is one of those very simple, rich experiences that takes a lot of words to describe.

Hmm, right. There's just like language limits our ability to communicate a felt sense. And I think that is so true about experience and an experience is felt. Experienced and that is outside. It is [00:13:00] beyond words. It is sensory. It is whole, and that makes it difficult to put a nice tidy bow around like marketing.

You can say, did it drive conversion? Did it drive engagement? Super check. I experienced just is richer or more interesting and more complicated than that. And in your book, you describe experience strategy as having three parts, and I love the way you've broken this down. You say a powerful experience vision, and I like that word is again, so encompassing, there are the edges and there's a set of relevant metrics.

Okay. Easier said than done. So I want to take the right. Oh, I'm going to take these one by one. If we can. How do you guide the companies you work with or research to identify and experience vision?[00:14:00]

Aga: vision is probably the toughest part of the whole, uh, this whole strategic cycle. And, uh, how I understand the vision. Uh, he is very much how, uh, Bob Rossman and map there than describe meaningful experiences in their book, designing experiences. So basically the vision is something that. The user, the customers, the feeling of, of purpose or of the fact that whenever they are doing something with you, uh, they are contributing to something bigger than just, you know, the Hellenistic need for fulfilling some certain need.

So let's say if we are talking about the bank apart from the fact that they feel comfortable saving their money, In that particular bank, they know that that bank is also [00:15:00] contributing to something bigger than just financial gain. And one of the examples that they've heard about this, about a Brazilian bank, I don't remember the name of it, but, uh, that was a bank that apart from being a bank had a vision that they wanted to.

Eradicate illiteracy in Brazil. So basically they were building schools, creating educational programs and so on and so on and so forth. And this is something that makes customers be more emotionally willing to be a part of, uh, comparing to a company that is just basically, you know, earning money. And when I talk about it in the boardroom, Uh, often.

This is not met with a huge enthusiasm. I would say the calls, uh, we are in [00:16:00] a, in an economy where the 20% growth is the, the, you know, the goal of. A goal for every year and having to spend on something that is not necessarily the core business is not something that kind of gets a lot of enthusiasm in many of the board members.

Uh, yeah. So I don't know if you agree

Aransas: with me that your diplomacy right there.

Dave: Right, right. And, uh, you know, w uh, I like where you're going with that. I liked the idea of tying. Uh, what you're thinking about in terms of experience, vision with Bob Ross and Matt, Matt directions, uh, work on designing experiences.

One of the things that, uh, we've run into on a regular basis is that, um, companies. Uh, don't really think about their experience, vision [00:17:00] as being a part of their channel vision, their employee vision, their, um, their product solution vision. They think somehow that's experienced, sits on top of and is kind of separate from what it is that they actually deliver, which is all.

Which is odd because what they deliver can't be described as anything other than the experiences itself. And one of the things that I think is really interesting that you're trying to address, I think, in your book, is that the experience. Is every bit a part of the business strategy as anything else that you're doing.

If you can, if you can say that you're really good at KPIs when it, and, and resource allocation or, um, for widgets, why can't you be just as [00:18:00] good at KPIs and understanding for customer experience? It doesn't to me that that makes complete sense. Totally.

Aga: Uh, yes. So I completely agree. And what is even tougher for many organizations, organizations to understand is that at the end of the day, if they invest in this experience, Because it is an investment.

They often see there's a cost to buy these actually an investment people will be willing to enter into an emotional relationship with those organizations. And therefore even if there is a cheaper competition, they are going to be willing to. With that company with that organization because of the fact that they have that particular vision.

And of course, I know that Patagonia is probably the most abused example ever in our domain. [00:19:00] Sure. But I think that this is a really perfect example because what they are doing is exactly that they created such a powerful experiential vision that. When I am and many people are, we are thinking of buying, um, tracking cloud clouds.

They are going okay. Like that's going to be more expensive, but I am contributing to something bigger than me. So perhaps, maybe that's my way of influencing the world with, in my little individually insignificant, but globally, very significant way. Right. And the way.

Aransas: Sure.

Dave: Yeah. I have a Patagonia shirt on right now, so, you know, like I buy and what's interesting is, uh, to me, when you, when you described that AGA is that companies have no problem understanding things like style and the importance of [00:20:00] fashion and the importance of being cool and the

Aransas: importance of.

Dave: Exactly. That's my point. Yeah, exactly. They're all manifestations of a certain type of experience.

Aransas: The other thing that I think is interesting about this Patagonia example is that if you didn't know that about Patagonia, it would just look like expensive tracking gear .

Aga: Yep, absolutely. And what, what you, they've you, what you were talking about about, uh, being called.

You know, like sometimes I don't know, this may be very politically incorrect, what I'm going to say now, but I kind of think that often the people in the boardrooms they want to be called and they want to work in a company that's being perceived call. So therefore, although it's difficult to measure, they are pressing for that.

But being at the company that. [00:21:00] Influential and experienced shell. This is often too soft maybe, or maybe not cool enough. And therefore this is, this never gets the priority over, you know, whatever other, uh, thing they can brag about.

Dave: Yeah, no, I, I totally agree with you, but I don't know how you become cool without using principles of experienced strategy to deliver on, on, on that. It's the memory. It's the time well spent, it's the ability to do jobs better than, than anybody else. All of those aspects that, um, apple has been so good at for so many years and makes them so cool has everything to do with experience strategy.

So, um, sometimes, uh, you know, I love where you're going [00:22:00] with.

Aransas: Yeah. When you talk about the edges, I'm curious what you mean by that. Okay.

Aga: Um, so actually this very much connects to what you they've just said because edges are the differentiators. Uh, so these are the different qualities of experience that make you stand out in the market and these things can be cool.

And this is something that often companies are much more, um, Willing to listen to and follow with, uh, because they say, ah, if we, we, if we decide that our edge, our, our differentiator is being challenging or, uh, being magical or being intuitive, uh, then. They can say, Hey, I, I can pin that down much better comparing to this very abstract vision that we are never going to reach, uh, reach anyway.

Right? So, [00:23:00] uh, for, for many companies that the edges are much more concrete. And I talk a lot about how these things compare. So like, let me get back to what edges are, is a number of qualities that differentiate your experience on the monitor. With your competition. So basically, uh, these are the qualities of an experience that are different from whoever else is on the market, but at the same time they are worthy of talking about.

So, uh, let's say if you say that you are a usable. Probably, this is not something that people are going to talk about much because usability is this very pragmatic thing that when it's there, nobody talks about it when it's not there, then everybody starts talking about it. So what, what you're looking for are the differentiators that are emotional, that are making people [00:24:00] feel something about having an experience.

With your solutions with your processes, with your, um, with your services and so on and so forth. So this is something that when I talk to my clients often, this, this resonates with them. This resonates with that management boards, uh, members of the management board. It resonates with the people, uh, on that, on the work floor.

And that major problem, there are usually ease that. They have, uh, the companies have a difficulty to think about the differentiators in a radical manner. So basically what I'm saying in the book, and also when whenever I'm working with, with my clients is that it's not that you will be. Magical one step ahead of your competition or five steps ahead of your competition.

You must be magical as nobody eats. So basically this is like you, you, you, you are [00:25:00] looking so, so let's say if you're a bank and you say that you want to be magical, your benchmark is this name? No, it

Aransas: is. It takes us back though, to the challenge that your very first client expressed, which is. How terrifying that is?

Aga: Yes. Oh yes. Yeah.

Dave: But there are lots of examples in history where that's exactly what companies did. Zappos created an entire culture around being amazing with shoes and customer service. And because they did, there's nobody likes Zappos. Right.

Aransas: Which is not really. Yeah, they were so memorable for a time that there's been a really long tail and halo effect from the work they did early on to be memorable.

Aga: Sure,

Dave: absolutely. Why, why do you call them edges? Is it because it gives you a [00:26:00] competitive edge or is it, or is it part of a visual that you're trying to help us to.

Aga: Um, so w when I was writing the book, I fought about them in terms of like, you have an app, you are edgy. So like, it was implied that it's cool.

Yeah, exactly. But also, like you kind of, you're not in the middle of the flock, but you are really, you know, on the French, uh, of it. Uh, however, when I'm working with it now, I usually call them differentiators, which is much more boring. Yeah. You know, readily understood by people I'm working with.

Aransas: I love that.

And I like when you describe it as emotional differentiators too, um, because it gets back to the felt sense of this, which is a really nice transition, I think, to the big, hairy quandary of experience metrics.

Aga: Yes. [00:27:00] This measure. You can, you have to just stack some people need to a machine, right? That's

Aransas: right.

The new E MRI machine.

Aga: Exactly. And more by one. And you stuck it to a head of every customer out there, and then you get your results.

Aransas: Sign me up.

Aga: Um, so there are a few things that are quiet. Uh, crucial when, when we start talking about measuring stuff, uh, first of all, uh, there is, uh, a notion which is a false notion that if you have something that's quantified, uh, it's objective and there's

so you stumped it's quantified. It gives a feeling that it's objective. And it's not me. It's a Douglas, Cobart [00:28:00] from a book, uh, how to measure anything. So, um, I would be super happy to have this beautiful quote, uh, signed to me, but unfortunately it's not me. It's him. Just very important to carry it out. Yes, absolutely.

Uh, however, uh, the, the whole point is that if you, if, if companies measure conversion clicks, uh, they, they have this feeling that they have a number and there for, it means something that. Uh, they think it means. And basically that's the trick because the interpretation is theirs and therefore it's subjective because we're all human.

And, you know, we are unfortunately not computers or fortunately not computers. And therefore we are not able to manage. Very much objectified, uh, conclusion simply because we, uh, through the way our brain works, we are basically always subjected to the cognitive biases and therefore we [00:29:00] interpret what we see through those biases.

So what any measure is, is a way to feed our intuition. So basically, and again, that's not me, that's Daniel Conoman, uh, who talks about the fact that every decision that we make is always intuitive. Like people are not able to make any other decisions in any other way by three intuition. However, we can feed that intuition.

So basically we can give it enough data that we make a decision. That's not. As bad as, as if we would have taken it, if we didn't have the data, because this is another thing that's important is that there is no such a thing, like a good decision, uh, that who is going to tell you that that decision was good.

And that was. There, there is no judge of such, right. At least I I've never met one. I don't know if you did. Yeah. Right. So basically the, the whole idea is that you try to make as [00:30:00] good decisions as possible. Given the data that you have in the circumstances that you find yourself. And, uh, so as much as the data about your sales and about your conversion, about your clicks and whatever else we put out there is equally good or equally bad as the data that you collect about what stories people tell about you.

So basically this is another piece of information that feeds that intuition. Uh, so basically you understand that. You get a more complex picture of the different factors that influence how customers perceive your, your offering on the market or your brand. Uh, okay, so, so, so th th this is, I know that this is a huge big tangent from your question questionnaire answers, but I'm going to get there in a second.

Uh, so there's another thing that is super important. [00:31:00] The fact that, that any measure, and I'm not, I'm not talking over the experiential measure, I'm talking about any measure should have more than one element in it. So if you have one measure, uh, and I'm going to something that's probably very much familiar to, to, to listen to, to the listeners of your podcast, which is the net promoter score.

Right? Sure. Uh, which is that the one number. Rules them all. Uh, and, and basically the, the problem with, with that number is that it's so huge and obstruct that first of all, I don't know what it measures and certainly doesn't. Excuse me exclusively measure experience, because it also measures how people perceive the price and how people perceive their technological advancement and how people perceive pretty much anything about whatever is being offered by.

So, this is like this huge bag of data of input that basically collects everything that [00:32:00] people think about the brand. And whenever I have a discussion with people who are in customer experience departments, and they say like, yeah, but you know, it measures something about how people perceive the company.

I said, okay, that's good. However, do you have an influence? Over how the pricing is being built and they say no. And I was like, all right. So wouldn't you like to have a measure that measures something that you can actually influence for your, through your, your deeds, your whole way from. Yeah. So how about bringing this whole huge sack of, uh, data that that's so complex that it's difficult to differentiate and also you don't have influence over it into something that is actually measurable for you as the department that is responsible for the experience.

So this is one thing. The other thing is that, uh, even if you measure NPS, the net promoter score, uh, How is it influenced? What does influence that? I [00:33:00] remember a story. I think that I'm writing about it in the book when I was collaborating with one of the big international banks in Poland, and they called me, uh, at some point about the metrics because they, they, there was this, uh, basically what, what happened was that there was, uh, an increase in NPS.

And they didn't do anything and they didn't understand what happened. So they called me and we started analyzing things. And this particular year, it was a beautiful spring and summer in Poland. So basically, you know, we, we are in the Northern Europe. So basically typically it's quite called until late April.

And that particular year, it already started to be really warm in March and basically the really good weather continued fruit to. September or October. So basically almost no rain days and sunshine all the time and so on. And basically what happened was that people were happier because they had more vitamin D in [00:34:00] their blood.

Uh, so basically, so basically whenever they imagined situation that they went to an ATM machine, they put the card in the card, got swallowed by the machine. Usually they would go and they would be really upset about it. And they would basically market in the Indian. Um, survey, but that time, this particular year, they would say, oh, it was probably me.

Doesn't matter. I can wait for the cart, uh, you know, a day or two. Oh, I'm okay. Because they were just happier because the weather was good. Uh, which is crazy, right. Like

Dave: insane. It's exactly right. That is exactly accurate of what was really going on. And I love that story. I'm going to steal that story because it's such a perfect example of what we talk about.

So I will credit AGA. I told her.

Aga: Thank you. Okay. So, you know, like, so this is [00:35:00] the problem that the measure that this particular measure is so abstract and so big that you don't even know what to measure. So this is one thing. The other thing is that one measure is, is easy to. Um, you can cheat it easily.

Uh, and I have an example here from, uh, from this telecom company I was working with and collaborating with, uh, day, um, they pulled an MPS core for the consultants, uh, in the branches to reach. I've um, I'm making the number up right now, but, uh, basically, you know, like 95. And as you imagine, like, if you have customers coming to your, to your branch and they are, uh, you know, some of them are happier, some of them are less, less happy.

So if you have a score that's so high, it's very difficult to get there, basically. So very smart. What they did. They basically created this little sheet of paper with a huge smiley face. And the texts [00:36:00] written underneath. If you like, how I surfed you, please give me a. And what happened if people were happy and they were generally serving them very well, uh, they would give them a 10 and of course this call was achieved and the, the, the, the branch got, uh, um, uh, Banos.

And then when the company found out, everybody was really upset about it. And they said like, Hey guys, you gave them one number. And they, if they did a bad job, obviously people wouldn't have given them 10, but basically. Put the number so high, they had no other choice. That's actually, you should, you should praise them for being smart rather than punish them for doing things.

Uh, so this is, this is another, another problem problem with this measure. And the first thing is that if you have NPS, it measures customer experience, but what sort of experience, what is that? What is the flavor of the experience that you are trying to deliver? [00:37:00] Nobody knows, right? No, exactly. Yeah,

Dave: exactly.

So what is your secret sauce for measurement? What do you, what do you encourage companies to focus on?

Aga: Um, so I'm encouraging them to focus on the stories that their customers tell about themselves about them. So basically what they typically do with, with a number of my clients is that. Uh, we basically collect the stories that their customers are telling to other people.

Uh, you do it on a internet panel. You basically pre prepared this little survey where the customers are asked to write a story. They recently told about your brand to another person. And then they basically rated on the emotional scale. Uh, and they look into. Um, how many people they told that story to.

And, and there is a bunch of other questions that are accompanying this, the survey, and [00:38:00] basically through this, you are doing semantic analysis and you're trying to see what, uh, sentiment, uh, the, the, you know, kind of gets through fruit through those stories. And, uh, based on this, you can, first of all, you can say, uh, whether people are happy around.

Uh, and another thing is that if you're the site. On your vision and your differentiators, you can actually pinpoint the stories that reflect that vision and those differentiators. And if the stories about the vision and differentiators are missing either you didn't do a job well enough to actually make people realize that you are doing what you, what you want to do, or especially in the case of differentiators, perhaps you chose those differentiators that are maybe not necessarily.

Uh, standing out in the market and maybe it's a worthwhile to re considered them. [00:39:00]

Dave: Yeah, no, you know, that's, that's a, that's a wonderful technique. It's a technique that has been used brand in branding as well for, in terms of brand story, brand narrative, as a technique for getting at the experience. Of course.

Anticipate that there would be overlap between the experience and, uh, the way the brand is perceived. So a wonderful kind of approach that, that fits very nicely with the overall idea. Of umami and what it is that you're, you're trying to convey, um, which is really quite fantastic.

Aga: It

Aransas: is all, I think it's also beautifully linked back to, to one of my favorite graphics in the book.

And I don't this, this book to talk about it really doesn't do it much justice, uh, because it sets. In [00:40:00] a really surprising places, statically and, um, it's just, it's simple and clear and beautiful. And there's this wonderful graphic where you, you very simply divide expectation, divided by experience equals memory.

And that that graphic has been so memorable. To me and its simplicity and its ability to, as we keep saying, describe something that transcends words and a very truthful and profoundly instructional way for all of us who are working on unexperienced strategy.

Aga: Thank you. Thank you so much. Actually, there is a little bit of a story behind the design of the book, because these publishers by publisher, they give a lot of freedom in the way the book is going to look like.

So there, there wasn't much of a, of an influence over how. Wanted to make this book [00:41:00] and much like with writing the book, I realized that I was amateur writer. I also realized that I was also an armature book designer. I've never designed a book again, apart from my PhD, uh, which again is not something that you kind of put on a bookshelf, at least not in my case.

So I got in touch with a friend of mine who is a professor. For of book design and typography design. And I asked him whether he would help me making this book into something that it's not only going to be, hopefully something good to read, but also something nice to look at. Uh, so he spent a lot of time with me helping me to set it up in a way, uh, that basically is perceived as, as, as well-designed.

But also when I was choosing the colors for the book he's wife, who is a painter, she said, okay, I'm going to choose the [00:42:00] particular colors that are going to make this book stand out. So, so I had, I got a lot of, um, surprising help, uh, in, in making this book look the way it looks and. I've been, I've been working with, with my ex student Dominica songland, uh, who is, uh, an amazing graphic designer and all the, uh, the, the, the, the pictures in the, in the book are made by her.

And she. Uh, I don't know, endlessly patient with me because I have, I'm very detailed oriented unfortunately, or fortunately. And unfortunately at the same time, basically, she had to make probably like tens, if not hundreds of corrections to every single drawing that you'll find that.

Aransas: It's a wonderful example though, of everything that you've said OCHA, because our expectation of business books [00:43:00] is dry wordy, uh, not terribly visual and, uh, uh, Pretty consistent color palette.

You know, you see the same primary colors on just about every book in the bookstore shelf and you have taken a big departure. And so the experience of it so far, it was so different from the expectation that you created something very memorable and exciting. And I think in doing so opened up a panel.

For a lot of people who maybe had never painted with these brushes. And, uh, I do think it's just, it's really exciting to have this in the mix of tools that are out there to create a greater sense of understanding about this. Sometimes difficult to communicate topic. [00:44:00]

Aga: Thank you so much. Thank you. I do hope so.

I, I must say that. Having you having a book published is not. It's actually not the nicest of feelings at first and the, um, my mentor. She was warning me about it. She said that, uh, first of all, you have baby blues because you worked so intensely on it and then it's out there and what are you supposed to do about it?

And another thing is. When you write a book and especially when it's your first book and, you know, being inexperienced writer, the book gets out and you, you worry, you worry how it's going to be received, whether people are going to like it, whether it was not totally obvious. And you just wrote the stuff that has been written the hundreds and thousands of times before.

And, uh, yeah, I remember I was. Uh, the first weeks were not happy weeks [00:45:00] for me. And so hearing this is, is amazing because it kind of gives me courage to, to write more and maybe trust myself a bit more in that sense, giant.

Aransas: Yes. Yes. And I've been thinking a lot about this strange experience that rockstars must have.

Um, because they don't just put their music out in the world. They then have to go and play the music the same way over and over and over again. And, uh, you now get to create the next thing and the next, and we're really excited to see what it is. So I'm so happy to be connected with you. So. Grateful for the work you're doing, uh, for our listeners that want to connect with you further and want to learn more about the book and about you, where should they get?

Aga: So, uh, there is a website www dot [00:46:00] dot com uh, uh,

Aransas: show notes in case you like most of us don't know how to spell. Schostek.

Aga: Uh, and there, there is a, there is the information about the book, about the model. There's also information about the design tools that, um, I've been designing, uh, before I dare to write a book. Uh, so, so there's, there's more of, of material there. Um, I am on LinkedIn obviously. And you can see some of my experience there.

Uh, I'm also running a podcast myself, uh, if I may, uh, Elise bracket here. Uh, so as it gets called catching the next wave, and there is an episode about the book, uh, recorded with my co-host and co-host and call. Uh, call living partner, my husband, basically because we do it together. I was just trying to find that.

Yeah, funny way to [00:47:00] say it, but maybe I'm just complicating things right now. Anyway, so basically there is a, there is an episode about the book there. I want to write a piece about it. I actually, there are two or three pieces on, um, world experience, organization, website w X o.org. And, uh, I know that they should write a bigger piece about it because it's missing, but I, I didn't get to it here.

Aransas: Well, we look forward to reading it when you do and definitely check out the podcast. So many great guests on there and really rich interviews. Thank you again for being with us to those of you listening. If I took away just one thing from this, it would be to remember that. Expectation divided by experience equals memory.

It is one of my favorite AGA isms. Um, but also just this, [00:48:00] this patient practice of defining the vision first and foremost, by considering the higher order opportunity and the sense of purpose that you have the opportunity to give your customer. Design of your experience, Dave, any other big takeaways you hope people will walk away from this conversation.

Dave: I hope people walk away with a realization that experienced strategy is so important. And I just really grateful to AGA for doing such a great job of creating a point of view on experienced strategy, um, and uh, highly recommend, uh, her book to, to anybody who's really trying to understand the bigger picture.

Yes.

Aransas: Yes. Thank you [00:49:00] so much for being here. I thank you for listening and we'll bring you lots more exciting episodes. So like subscribe, follow, do all those things. And we look forward to connecting

Aga: with you further. Thank you so much. It was such a blizzard.

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