The Experience Strategy Podcast: What is Meaningful Motivation?

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More than ever, people expect their experiences with brands to motivate them to achieve their goals. We’ve done extensive research to understand what this takes and turned these insights into frameworks that any company can use. Tune in to learn powerful ways to design products and services that motivate and inspire!

Voiceover: [00:00:00] This is the experience strategy podcast, where we look at the best and the worst customer experiences and ask what were they thinking? And now here are your hosts experience, nerds, Dave Norton and Aransas. Savis

Aransas: welcome to the experience strategy podcast. I'm Miranda Savis. So Dave, in this episode, I think we should take a little departure from our usual format and bring our friends here under the tent and look at some of the work we've been doing.

That's really on the cutting edge of meaningful motivation, and maybe even take a peak at what we hope to accomplish with this work. What do you think.

Dave: Sounds great. Can't wait to

Aransas: meet you either. This is probably my favorite thing in the world to talk about. All right, Dave, so start us off by just sharing a little bit about what led your team [00:01:00] to start exploring meaningful motivation specifically, you know,

Dave: for a long time we've been hearing from consumers that, uh, they want.

Companies to understand their goals, their individual goals, their personal goals, not necessarily as a group. They want in fact companies to ask them about their goals. And many companies really struggle with understanding their customers at an individual. And getting to the level of specific needs and responses.

So that was one of the first things that led us down this particular path. The next thing that we ran into is we do a lot of work with healthcare companies. And if you're not in healthcare, you may not be aware of the fact that the industry as a whole is making a shift to what is called value based care, [00:02:00] which basically means.

And it's being driven by regulation by the government that you will get paid. According to the outcome that you deliver. So if your patient doesn't feel satisfied with your service, if your patient relapses and has to go back into the hospital, uh, then you're going to actually get paid less than if you.

Are able to show that your outcomes were better, that the patient actually appreciated what you did. And they recovered in a timely and effective way, and they stayed on their medication and so forth. All of this is what is called value based care. Well, in order for healthcare companies to do that, they have to find ways to keep people motivated.

To, uh, do the things that they're trying to have them do. And of course, in order to keep them motivated, they have to have an understanding of [00:03:00] what motivates people. So that was a big area. We did a lot of research around that particular area, and then I've always had kind of a frustration. I've always been against the simple.

Answer that is manipulative. And what I saw in a lot of models of consumer behavior behavior change were very simple tactics that were being used to manipulate. And if you're going to do meaningful motivation, meaningful motivation means. That you understand the individual, you understand their goals.

You're trying to help motivate them towards something that's actually going to help them. And you're not going to be using those techniques to manipulate. So, so that's,

Aransas: that's how let's see your model of there's only four of these objects left. You must [00:04:00] order now,

Dave: right? Exactly. Exactly. That's

Aransas: that's what is motivating?

I always think back to the study, we did years ago where we were working on a behavior change project and we were trying to quantify the motivators that had the biggest effect and what we found time and time again, was it simple stuff like a regret lottery would engage people in doing things they wouldn't otherwise do, but I think to your point, And it's kind of manipulative and it's best as a short term engagement strategy.

It's not a fun

Dave: for fun. Yeah. I mean, you know, I just interviewed a woman not about three weeks ago and I asked her, uh, from a retail standpoint, what she liked about buying things online. And she said, I love the games that, you know, like I love pushing on [00:05:00] to see what kind of discount I'm going to get. And I'm like thinking to myself, I hate those things, but she's for her.

Fun. And that's very different than, uh, doing it for the purposes of constantly pushing, pushing, pushing product. Uh, well, and

Aransas: I think too, oh, that's right. It's about sustainability of these things and pushing a button one time to make a purchase is tapping into a whole different system of your brain than trying to get you to.

Eat less sugar or smoke less, or take your medication even. And there's a place for both of these types of triggers. But I think what you're talking about here, which is more sustainable and more transformative. So how is this different from the ways people have thought about motivation the [00:06:00] past? Do you think Dave.

Dave: Yeah, sure. When we talk to consumers about what motivates them, how they understand experiences that are, are trying to make their life better in some way, shape or form, by helping them to change their behavior. They often use the language of systems. And what I mean by that is. They will say things like, well, in order for me to stay motivated, I have to stay balanced.

In order for me to stay motivated. I have to be, I have to feel like things are being orchestrated well or coordinated. Well, all of these words, balance coordination orchestration are examples of systemic thinking. They're trying to manage their motivator. Across multiple domains of their [00:07:00] lives. They're trying to do it in a way that is connected to another system that they have, which is their belief system.

And they're trying to, trying to tap into things that they feel are deep. Uh, and. By that it might be a feeling that they get from safer from yoga or from meditation or from something else. They're trying to find ways to be motivated in a systemic way. That really matters.

Aransas: Yeah. And I think you're right.

As I've talked to people too, I hear that our values are really leading our perception of value. And I don't know that that was always true. I think it's a relatively new phenomenon that our personal values are playing such a big factor [00:08:00] in our designation of economic value. And this idea of. Something being meaningful is so deeply related to what we really care about, whether it's being able to provide for our family or, uh, feeling a sense of personal wellbeing, I think is brands.

We have to get so much better at really understanding what lights people up. And that of course takes them, understanding it as well, which in many cases takes some provocation. We have to create space for people to reflect on what is meaningful for them. What is valued by them to understand what is valuable to them.

Does that distinction makes sense as I'm saying it?

Dave: I think it does. I, I love where you're going with this and by the way, I just want to mention at this point, uh, we have some exciting, uh, news at stone mantle or ranch. [00:09:00] Sovos our colleague and friend has decided to join stone mantle and lead up our practice around meaningful motivation.

And we're just so excited to have you be a part of it. You've studied motivation for so many years. You've been at the forefront of the work on meaningful motivation. And, and I can't think of anybody better to really help us move into this, this territory than you.

Aransas: Well, thank you. Yeah. And for me, it is so much about the same concept.

It's so related to what we're talking about, because what I value is a sense of purpose and impact. And that really matters to me. And so, as I was thinking about what to do in my career, for me, it became. Absolutely essential to know that I could bring value [00:10:00] and have an impact in the lives of others. And so, I mean, I believe fundamentally it's my reason for being on the planet.

And so to have been able to do it for so many years within a single brand. Really powerful and exciting. I got to be a part of transforming the lives and influencing the well-being of millions of people across the globe. And on a very small scale within my private coaching practice, I'm able to do this with individuals and.

Imagine the ripple effects from their individual lives into their families and communities. But what was really exciting about joining your team? Dave is the opportunity to bring the power of meaningful motivation and behavior change. Chu a wide range of categories and companies. And then start to imagine the ripple effects.[00:11:00]

What happens when we are able to inspire companies to meaningfully motivate their customers, to help each of these individuals at scale, create the change. They are dreaming of in their own lives. And so, so just like on a mission based level, I can't imagine anything more inspiring or exciting. And so even, even the idea of working on meaningful motivation, To me, it comes back to meaningful motivation and I am meaningfully motivated by this work,

Dave: you know?

And as you describe it, w one of the things that I think is core to this, and I talked about it already is we have to understand what people want. To be motivated around. It's not enough when we're thinking about a practice around meaningful motivation. One of the [00:12:00] big differences is that we're not focused on what the company is trying to motivate the customer to do.

We're focused on what the individual wants to do, why they want it. And how the company supports them in their goals, which in the end is going to be far more fruitful for the company, because they're going to build that relationship.

Aransas: Right. And that's that, that, that's the thing I believe is what's good for the customer is good for the company,

Dave: right.

Right. And not a PR paternalistic kind of way. The company cannot be saying constantly that they know what's good for the, uh, for the customer. And I think banks have been in the business of trying to motivate people according to their own, uh, kind of paternalistic approach to [00:13:00] things. I think, uh, retailers.

Uh, been somewhat overhanded sometimes in the way that they have approached their customers. And I think customers are reacting to that. People are reacting to all of those, those tactics. They don't want to be manipulated anymore and they can smell it. I think that the younger generations. I understand what manipulation looks like, and they're not interested in it, but they do want to accomplish their goals.

Aransas: 'cause I think people you're right. They want support. They want to achieve their goals. They know they need an assist. But they want it in an authentic way that meets them where they are. And so there's a lot of trust that has to be repaired across these categories. And I think that's where we're going to, we need to be able to really stand [00:14:00] out and differentiate our practice and our approach to this is because fundamentally we are starting with the customer's mindset and the customer's view.

And I just, I don't see many other. Companies out there supporting brands in taking a customer centric view of motivation instead it's how can we apply our analytics to create a, a, a code that essentially manipulates people? And there's so much distrust, right? Like these, the algorithm. World that all been drug into and drugged by

Dave: totally.

I mean, it is, I think Tik TOK, there's a place for tick-tock right. That's who we're talking about. Right. There's a place for it. They do a great job of motivating [00:15:00] you to stay put and, and pay 10. But there's, there's much more that can, that can be done. We've identified eight. Principles that are kind of our starting point for the, for how we think about meaningful motivation.

And, uh, so let's talk a little bit about some of those, um, those principles. The first one is, is that upon reflection, the individual appreciates the encouragement given. Uh, so our ANSYS, when you, when you hear that, that it's upon reflection that the individual appreciates the encouragement, what comes to mind

Aransas: for.

Well, for me, one of the pieces of this is that we have to trigger reflection in order to have a personal opinion and an a compelling goal. You need to have done a little bit of work to ask yourself, what do I care about? And I think that's part of the job. Um, [00:16:00] Meaningful motivation is to intentionally create space for personal reflection for your customer, your client, to do their work and to decide what is valuable to them and to, to value the support that you're giving.

Dave: I like that. The second principle is that motivation is directed towards something that matters. And so we want to make sure that we're motivating people. Uh, in a way towards things that they care about. And some of the things that they care about are things like balance, uh, things like relationships, things like being able to relax, to overcome anxiety.

Those are the types of things that matter to them. There's a lot more, I'm just listening to.

Aransas: Companies that were [00:17:00] doing the opposite of that, right. They're saying focus on what matters to us or focus on what matters to your neighbor. But I think what you're distinguishing here is if this is to be done well, it has to focus on what I care about, which means you have to ask me and then you have to actually respond to it because you're really going to annoy me.

If you ask me, and then you tell me to focus on what matters to me.

Dave: Exactly. And if you're motivating me, motivating me, motivated me towards your ends. You're probably going to make me more anxious bill out of that balance feel, uh, like, uh, stress in my relationships and so forth. So, uh, the, the end really matters in this.

Then we need to think about that. The motivation strengthens the individual's life system. Uh, we've been talking a little bit about systems, uh, and we're going to go, we're not going to go too deep [00:18:00] into it. It's kind of hard to completely understand it in. In a podcast kind of format. I think you need some visual sometimes to help you understand.

And it's a topic that we're actually studying quite a bit in the collaboratives that, uh, stone mantle runs. Uh, but we know that people have different domains of their. There there's their finances, there's their health, there's their wellbeing. And the motivation needs to actually make their finances better.

It, the motivation actually needs to make their lives better in some way, shape or form. When you think about life systems, what do you think about around

Aransas: this? To me, this is, this comes down to being a good fit with my life, right? Like, so basic goals struck. Um, if, if I'm setting goals for myself that are not suitable for the context of my life, then they will be unattainable.

They will be [00:19:00] unmotivating and they will be unmeaningful. New word, uh, because it ha it has to be a good fit with everything else. We, we have a tendency, I think, as human beings to isolate intentions and goals and to create meaningful motivation, we have to be contextual. And I think to me, that's really the challenge here is to get people to think contextually and to think about the benefits holistically as well.

And that's what you're saying. I think when you talk about systems is if you're going to help me with my health, don't do it in a way that alienates me from my family. Cause they're all I really care about.

Dave: Right. Absolutely. Then we need to lead that motivation needs to lead to momentum, [00:20:00] but allow the life system to keep the momentum going.

So there needs to be, you can't be motivated all the time. Would you agree with that? You need to be able to trust the other parts of your life to kind of help you along the way and not always kind of be like running America.

Aransas: Yes, absolutely. Rest is as important as effort. And part of, again, the power and importance of reflection is to reinforce that and to appreciate the value of.

The relative or the, the equal benefits of arrest and reflection. And so I think to why it's really beautiful that, that the team brings in this idea of life systems as a role within having a role within that. So if we look at the example we just gave, if you're going to help me be healthy, don't do it in a way that alienates me from my family, rather.[00:21:00]

Do it in a way that makes it more fun for me to do with my family and allow the joy and satisfaction that come from my connections to others to help me create and sustain momentum.

Dave: Absolutely. And that kind of ties to the fifth concept that we've identified, which is if you're going to create meaningful.

Motivation, you need to encourage a positive mindset toward that momentum. So you're, you're constantly trying to do things that help them to feel good about what it is that they're they're doing. So, one of the examples that comes to mind that we've heard people talking about is. Of a test and fail to think about test and learn.

Um, that's part of that [00:22:00] positive mindset.

Aransas: Yeah. I think that's incredibly important here. How we perceive any scenario is our truth. That is our reality. And I think that's one of the places. We can help people kind of get out of their own heads a little bit. And you see this in so many different categories that we are, we are successful in helping people sustain energy and effort.

That is hard, that is taxing and disruptive to their current routines. By helping them appreciate the value of the work that they're doing. So, you know, the momentum may not always be outwardly in the direction of your. But helping them appreciate that learning that's happening through the UN the greater understanding of what's helpful and what's unhelpful.

That absolutely [00:23:00] encourages a growth mindset. It absolutely encourages a continued efforting because you can see in the, you can see in the challenges. While they may not be moving the metric you expected. They are moving you.

Dave: I like that a lot when it comes to the next principle that we've identified, uh, around meaningful motivation.

I think it seems obvious, but it's something we kind of talked about a little bit earlier that you're creating trust. That you really have their best interest in mind. What are companies doing that actually creates trust that you, they have your best things in mind?

Aransas: This principle is actually an outcome.

The first few that we talked. It's by creating space for reflection. It is by [00:24:00] asking people what they really care about and then responding to that the way people create distressed. And you see this happen so much in technology, you'll say, oh, take this assessment. Tell me your opinions or your perspective on this.

Thank you for your data. Now I'm going to completely disregard it.

Dave: Right. Absolutely.

Aransas: I'm going to put you into the algorithm and I'm going to treat you just like everybody else, or I'm gonna put you into the algorithm and I'm going to manipulate you and sell your data and modernity. Yeah. So, I mean, there's so much, so much distressed. That has been created. That's why I think anyone embarking on a meaningful motivation body of work is going to have to probably start [00:25:00] with trust building and use that as a center point for their work.

Dave: Building on all of this then is the next principle which has to do with adapting, your approach to fit their mode. Now, uh, we are planning on doing a whole episode just on modes. They're really important. We talked about them with employee engagement, to some degree, uh, It's a pretty simple concept. People get into certain modes and those modes can work toward helping them to be motivated or work against them being more motivated.

What are your thoughts on that or ANSYS?

Aransas: Yeah, I mean, I think it's about meeting people where they are. And it's about helping people appreciate. I can't, I mean, all of this stuff is interrelated, but it's about appreciating the mode, your N for what it is. And [00:26:00] so it, it is a part of encouraging a positive mindset related to momentum to say, and, and I'll, I'll loop in our last principle here about strengthening people while they're motivated, because I do, I think about so much of this.

Like climbing Mount Everest. Right? So I remember being so moved the first time I ever read about a climber and that process of a scent, because I think outwardly without any knowledge, I would look at it and say, oh, these really fit people train super hard. And then they get their Sherpa and their water and their good shoes and they climb the mountain.

But that's not what happens. They do all that. And then they go to base camp and they learn how to breathe and they rest and they recover and then they get a little bit [00:27:00] stronger and then they make it to the base camp. And sometimes they have to go backwards for a little while. And then they try again and make the next ascent.

And I think that's really so core to understanding meaningful motivation is understanding that sometimes we are in attack mode and sometimes we are in recovery mode. And sometimes we are in project mode and sometimes we are in lifestyle mode and sometimes we were in family. Right. And, and being aware of where we are and accepting that as a part of a journey is pretty essential to staying on the journey because otherwise I think it was humans.

We have a tendency to think, oh, I'm a failure. I can't go on. I tried good luck guy.

Dave: Yeah. So what we have in mind for this particular practice is focused on helping people and their lives [00:28:00] and making them feel more successful. And through that process, of course, helping companies to create even. Better experiences for their customers, more meaningful experiences for their customers and to deliver new types of services that go well beyond what they were able to do maybe, um, before.

Aransas: I'm so excited about that. And I'm curious as you, as you had this idea of. Making meaningful motivation, a core part of what stone mantle is known for as an agency. How did you imagine us working with other organizations to support them in building out their meaningful motivation offering?

Dave: Well, they application of these principles is fairly far [00:29:00] reaching.

I think it can affect the way that we think about marketing to customers, the way that we sell to customers, the way that we coach customers, the way that we develop loyalty programs for our customers, uh, certainly the way that we. Interact with our customers on our, on a regular basis, can all be influenced and strengthened by understanding meaningful motivation.

And what we're doing is we're building some of the best frameworks and concepts around not just motivating people, but around experiences. So we're bringing those two things together, motivation, meaningfulness, and. We're creating experiences from, from those two elements. And I think that that's going to create a lot of value for the companies that we're working with.

Aransas: I agree. And I think just [00:30:00] in addition to the meaningful motivation aspect of this, it is backed by the incredible research. Competency of the agency and the ability to get underneath customer needs. And that I can tell you from 20 years of working in this space is the hardest part. People are not starting with good research.

They're asking questions that seem like they would get to it, but that's why I keep coming back to this point. People don't know what they want. And so, so many companies are making the mistake of asking them what they want and then being surprised that that's not really what they want. And that was what really impressed me about you all.

And what made me so excited to come work with [00:31:00] you is that you had the methodology and the ability to ask. The deeper questions and whether it's through understanding modes or through understanding value systems, we're able to get underneath the surface, get to the deeper answer and then design something that really has an impact.

And I think these big businesses that have a huge impact on our. Lives and our satisfaction, whether it's, I mean, especially financial and health care, that the first two, I think of these are industries where there's oh, much huge opportunity to leverage meaningful motivation in a way that is powerful for the consumer, powerful for the business.

But it's got to start with great insight because otherwise people are just going to spend a boatload of money going after the wrong problem.

Dave: Totally agree. [00:32:00] Totally. This is going to be fun. We're so excited.

Aransas: Thank you. Thank you listeners. Thanks for listening. Peeking under the tent with us, as we talk about how we want to do our jobs, it is a powerful moment, truly in history.

When I think about where we are right now and. The lofty expectations customers rightfully have of us to not mess around with their time or money, but to really add meaningful value to their lives. There's a lot of trust and a lot of hope being put into us and it is work that I could not be. More excited to do so.

Thank you for voting on me, Dave, for putting your trust in me. I'm so excited for us to get out there and help millions of people. I mean, I [00:33:00] really believe we could change the world here if people are I do as I'm. So. But I believe that when people are meaningfully motivated, when they're going after, what matters to them that ripples out, like I said, into their families, into their communities and to the world and to do work that is not just simple exchange of monetary value, but to do work that adds true meaning and value to people's lives.

That's work worth. And I'm really, really excited and honored that we get to do it together. Thank you all for listening. Thanks for being on this journey with us and as always keep telling us what matters to you. We want to put out episodes that. Are meaningful and that are a good use of your time. So please stay in touch with us and help us be better.