The Experience Strategy Podcast: When Measurement is Part of the Experience

May 24, 2022

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Does your experience serve your current customer? How about your future customer? Do you know if your experience is time well spent for your customer? Or if they are truly engaged? Or if the outcomes you’re delivering matter to them? In today’s episode, we are joined by Sheila Akbar, the president & COO of Signet Education to explore what happens when companies make measurement a meaningful part of the experience. 

Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to the experience strategy podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts experienced nerds, Dave Norton and Aransas Savis.

Aransas: Today. We are joined by the president and CEO of Cigna education.

Sheila Ackbar, Sheila and her team have taken on the. Incredibly audacious and powerful task of creating a holistic set of services to help students apply for and prepare for college along the way. They have asked their team a lot of questions and they've asked their customers even more questions today.

We get to ask Sheila some questions about the challenges they face as they. Design and deliver this product and [00:01:00] hopefully help her think about the way she measures success in some new and powerful ways. So Dave and I are pretty familiar with segment the company that you co founded, but some of our listeners might not be.

So tell us a little bit about what it is you're making out there in the world.

Shelia: Sure. Thank you. So Cigna was founded in 2005, and we really started as you know, your typical test prep, tutoring, college admissions kind of company. And over the years, um, we have shifted, uh, into, I think what our true calling really is, and that is a holistic set of services to help teenagers navigate high school and the college process.

So we still have. You know, academic tutoring, test prep, college admissions, we've added in executive function, coaching and life coaching, and we kind of mix it up. Um, so even if you're just doing test prep with [00:02:00] us, you're going to get some coaching flavor or you're going to get, you know, the underlying math tutoring that you need to do well on the act like.

And I think that's pretty unique in the, in the tutoring space, because a lot of companies are very transactional and you hired me for math tutoring. That's all we're doing that kind of got their blinders on, but what we do as far broader than that. And we like to say it's because we've got the whole student in mind, you know, it's not just math that is maybe holding them back from the success that they want.

There may be other things underlying. Or complicating that. And so we want to take a look at the bigger picture and think about, um, the larger sense of success that the student is looking

Dave: for. And you have a pretty amazing track record. Sheila, talk a little bit about the type of people that you're working with and, and where they end up.

Shelia: Sure. Yeah. And it's really, um, wonderful to hear this sort of feedback and the update on the story from parents that we do keep in touch with because we're, we're so relationship focused, [00:03:00] but. Like 60 to 70% of our students have some sort of learning challenge. So this might be like an official learning disability diagnosis, like dyslexia or something like that.

Uh, it may be some form of add ADHD, or it could just be executive function challenges, or a lack of engagement in school. And so they started a pretty, pretty low spot when they come to us, they're feeling a little bit helpless. Their parents have probably tried a lot of things and nothing seems to be.

But they know their kid has all the potential in the world. Right. Uh, and they're just looking for someone to help them unlock it. And, you know, the transformations that we've been able to facilitate, um, for our families have been really amazing. You know, most of our students are going to a selective university.

Um, I talked to a mom recently who said we never thought college was in the car. For our son and they just finished a whole bunch of college tours, so [00:04:00] real, you know, 180 degree changes. And our students do very well in the admissions process. Not just because of. We help them, you know, strategically apply, but we're helping them understand who they are and what they want out of their educational experience.

So they're able to see very clearly which colleges meet their needs and which, which ones don't. And then also be able to, they're able to articulate that in their college applications very well. They come out with a self-awareness and maturity that I think is pretty rare for teenagers.

Aransas: Hmm. Yeah. What role does the holistic approach play in?

Yeah,

Shelia: a lot of it is really the conversations we're having with parents, whether that's, you know, me on the front end or if there's, you know, an issue I'm troubleshooting with them, um, or the tutors themselves, um, you know, after a session, they may have a 15 minute chat with, uh, a parent to talk about what's going on.

And I think what we're doing is helping parents see their children for who they really are. [00:05:00] Um, and see their strengths and see things that they, they may not feel that comfortable with that, you know, the world may see as a disability, but helping them see it as a unique set of strengths and really, you know, Yeah, exactly.

And except where their kid is today and be realistic about where their kids going to go and also just be really happy and supportive about that. Yeah.

Dave: You kind of understate your success a little bit. I think you said you're able to get these kids into a select group of universities by which, uh, Sheila actually means.

Oftentimes they're able to get into an Ivy league school, which is amazing. Totally. Yeah.

Shelia: I can't take credit for all of that. I could take credit for may clearing the road a little bit. Um, but these are really, really smart kids and they've got, um, some unique challenges standing in their way of that. But yeah, a lot of them do end up at IVs or.

Um, very selective [00:06:00] liberal arts institutions. Um, you know, what, what we would normally call the top 200, um, if you pay attention to like us news rankings, which I recommend you don't pay attention to.

Aransas: Okay. I love this idea though, of taking a strengths-based approach to this and helping these children at this very vulnerable moment in their lives, see perceive really their own strengths and celebrate them. And I just think, yeah. Uh, talk about transformative. If culturally, we can learn to do that for every one of our young people, how the world might change.

Yeah. So I know Cigna is still very much in a growth mode and probably learning a ton every day as a result. And we wanted to hear from you. I know, you know, we are experienced strategists with. [00:07:00] Big track record of our own helping big companies, but we also love to work with emerging organizations. And so, um, we thought it might be fun to hear a little bit about what Cygnet is learning.

Some of the big challenges you're struggling with and apply some of the frameworks that we use as experienced strategists to. Finding solutions. So when you think about challenges that you're facing right now, what, what's something that, that feels really important to address for this next stage of growth at Cigna?

Shelia: Yeah. Yeah. It's a great question because there's so many things, but one of the things there should

Aransas: be,

Shelia: yeah. One of the things that we're doing now is, is really putting a finer point on what we call. Right. For a long time, we've said, oh, we do these four servers. What do you need? Let's give you something off the menu, right.

But what we're moving to [00:08:00] now is really engaging families in all of the services, but in a way that is sort of digestible and we can deploy them at the right time for the student, you know, on their journey. Uh, we're calling it Pathfinder. And the, and the whole idea is that we're helping students find their.

Right understand their values, their strengths, and how those will play out in their real life. In terms of the classes they choose, the extracurriculars that they participate in. Eventually the colleges that they'll go to and the stories that they're going to tell, um, in their applications to those colleges.

Um, and one of the things that we have long struggled with, whether we're talking about one thing that we're selling, or four separate things that we're selling. How do we measure our success? You know, Dave, Dave, throughout there, a lot of our kids end up in Ivy league schools and that's great. And that is definitely one measure of success.

But if we are coming at this from this holistic standpoint where we do want every student [00:09:00] to define success in their own terms saying how many Ivy leagues did you get into is not going to be a great measure of success that also reflects our Philips. Right. So that's one of the challenges we have. And then along with measuring that success, it's, um, we've got, we've got a parent that has their own definition of success.

We've got a student that has their own definition of success. We may have our own definitions of success. And so for me, it's just like, Right. And there are quantitative things that we can measure grades, for example, or some score on a, on a test. But one of the things that we're really interested in seeing, you know, an area that we're really interested in seeing the student grow in is their self-confidence their self knowledge.

Well, how do you measure those things? So that's my question to you guys. What, what are we doing?

Aransas: I love that. So can we ask you some questions now? Of course. All right. So fact finding here. So the first [00:10:00] thing I'd be curious about is what data points you're already collecting about how the various parties involved here, the students, the parents, the colleges, even how you were parked.

Measure success and what they're hoping to achieve as a result of. Sure. Yeah.

Shelia: So we usually do start with, um, some kind of diagnostic, right? So in test prep, we actually call it a diagnostic. We have them do a practice sat for example, and we benchmark their performance, right. That's a starting score. And as they work with one of our tutors on their testing abilities, We have them do additional practice tests.

You know, usually every four or five weeks, we look at that score compared to their original score. And so that's a really easy one for us to measure. Right. We've got an initial score. We've got inter interim scores and then we've got an end score. We do a similar thing with. We like to [00:11:00] know where a student stands on all of their classes when they're starting with us.

And then whenever they get a grade report, we look at that we bank it. They're like, okay, we're making progress and algebra, we're making progress in Spanish. Or this grade slipped with admissions. The most that we do right now is keep a list of where they're applying and how they did at those various.

Right. Did they get accepted? Wait-listed deferred, uh, denied. And so we're tracking all of that, but you know, parents, and this is actually another interesting complication. Parents will tell you, we're so happy with this. You know, I can see my student, you know, figuring out their story and it's giving them so much confidence and they're feeling one way before the colleges released their decisions.

And then the college has released their decisions. Completely rewrite history. Right. They, they wash out any, anything that was happening before any of the, the true, solid [00:12:00] gains that students have made in terms of, you know, discovering themselves, building their confidence, things like that. While those things are still intact, even after a college says yes or no.

There is a new measure that bumps, all those things out of, uh, the client's memory, which is, did they get into my Alma mater or, you know, the school that we were really hoping for. So there's, there's this, um, there's this aspect that the goalpost is always moving.

Aransas: Yeah. Yeah. I understand that all too well.

And, uh, both as a parent, but also as somebody who. Experiences for decades for a metrics based outcome that is really driven by a felt sense. So I worked in the weight industry for a long time. No matter how much people say. About more than the scale. It's about how they feel in their clothes and their body.

And that really is the outcome that matters. And that's really the one that is meaningful to people. They've been [00:13:00] conditioned to believe in a metric. And that is the test score. That is the admissions, right? So it is these outcome-based measures instead of the felt sense and the experience based metrics.

So why. I feel your challenge. So as you say, you talk about some of the felt shifts that happen, the confidence boost, the study habits, the self-belief, the self-awareness. How are you capturing those shifts throughout the journey? These are things that

Shelia: we're just taking sort of qualitative measure of whenever we can.

One of the tools we use with students is called a life wheel. And so it's

Aransas: just a picture on a piece. And I was like, I'm all about those life wheels. Yeah. They're great. Right.

Shelia: And so you set up axes on this wheel that represent, you know, maybe from. Uh, success in school relationship with, with family [00:14:00] or parents, something like that.

And you just ask them on each spoke of that wheelie, ask them, rate this on a scale of one. Right for what's happening right now. What would you give it? Right. And they come out with this, you know, kind of wobbly line that connects all the dots on their wheel. And we use that as an initial measure of, you know, how do they feel on these certain verticals?

Let's say, uh, and then every quarter. Really, um, which, you know, in business terms that we think of in terms of quarters for students, it's usually a semester, um, pretty equivalent, um, span there. Uh, and so every semester we do that, like how did you feel about everything that just happened this last semester?

And how are you feeling right now? How are you feeling about, you know, what's coming up ahead. Um, and so we look at changes on the life wheel, uh, to see that, um, so that's closest, we've gotten.

Aransas: I love it. And I think that's really smart way to do it, to have a repeated tooling that you can use to demonstrate chefs, right?

So that they are [00:15:00] able to perceive and reinforce. With felt shifts. Interestingly, even though they are more meaningful to people, they have not been valued as much historically. And so as experienced producers, we have a really heavy lift on our hands to reinforce them with, I think, a little bit more consistency and energy than we might some of the other data points or two, and, and correlate them where POS.

And I don't know that this exists for you, but what I mean by that is probably pretty evident, but just to be really explicit, it is being able to say, Hey, when you are feeling more engaged or more energized by the work that you're doing, we actually see a bump in your test results or in your study habits.

Right. And so looking for ways to connect the data. They've been conditioned to be excited by it and the condition and the data that is meaningful. I think it's very powerful. [00:16:00] Um, and a great way just to use your data for your organization to, to start to validate the impact of the work that you're doing.

I love that. Yeah. I love that. Dave, what's coming up for you in terms of thoughts here.

Dave: Well, I love this idea of using life wheels. All of the different techniques that you're doing. I'm not surprised at all that kind of the functional job, getting an sat score higher can be one of the biggest things that people are focused on.

If I were hiring a tutoring system, I would definitely want to see the sat scores go up as well. For my kids. Right. I think that's that's to be understood. You know, when, when we think from an experience strategy standpoint, a lot of companies tend to focus on the metric that we've [00:17:00] talked about a number of times and that's net promoter score net promoter score is how likely are you to recommend, and the reason.

Companies tend to go with net promoter is because there is that correlated data that says that if your net promoter score is higher, then you're going to be able to create more value for your company. And so we're so a lot of, a lot of experience strategists focused on that, but I liked the idea. Uh, thinking about the experience holistically and using an indexed.

And I think that a lot of the things that you're doing could be integrated into what we might call a time well spent index or a reflection index and our ANSYS. And I have talked about this a lot, and we [00:18:00] talk about this at stone mantle, uh, quite a bit. So at a time, well spent metric. Basically what it does is it asks four different questions.

First of all, are we getting the job done for you? Secondly, are you getting the outcomes that you feel are most important and third, how engaged are you with the experience? And then there's the fourth question, which I think is probably the most interesting question of all. And that is, do you feel like this is either time well spent time well saved or time?

Well, in fact, Or is it time wasted that body of questioning can be done very close to whatever experience it is that they're having. Let's say that they just finished a week, a really rough week where they had to [00:19:00] prepare for an exam or something along that. And at the end of the week, you ask them maybe one of those questions a little bit later, you ask him another question and you're just kind of trying to get an understanding of, of whether or not they're engaged.

They're getting the right outcome that they're getting the job done that they're trying to get done. These types of questions don't necessarily tell you whether they're progressing towards their goal. They tell you more about the experience. And whether that experience is compelling to understand if they're they're progressing, you need to be thinking about kind of a pre post.

And that's what our ANSYS, uh, really specializes in is kind of what diagnostic are we doing up front? And then what are we doing on the backend, but to understand the value of the overall experience, one of the first things you can focus on is the time we'll [00:20:00] spent a metric.

Aransas: I love that. Yeah. And it works really well.

I will tell you with customers because it's so intuitive and yet it is so interpretive, right? So you get to learn a lot about your experience and the scalability, frankly, of what you're doing through answering these questions.

Dave: Exactly right now. There's a second set of metrics that we think are also important to under, to understand holistically how you're doing from an experience standpoint.

And we call those reflection metrics. And they're, they're basically a series of questions that you would ask. Encouraged the individual to actually reflect on their experience, reflect on how their experience has changed them and, uh, what it means. And what's interesting [00:21:00] about reflection questions, and we're doing this purposefully.

We think this is really important. A lot of companies get nervous about the customer, actually reflecting on what they're doing, because they think that somehow that biases the, the measurement. But I don't think that's the case. I think that you can have a separate. Yes, of course there is probably going to be some technical bias, but I think people are able to understand through reflection what value is being created for them.

And they need to think about it a little bit so that the types of questions that we ask around reflection questions have to do with first of all, with systems. So do you have a better. System for managing your homework in your case, how is [00:22:00] your system in managing your relationship with your parents getting better or worse?

Uh, those are systemic questions. It's not, it's not something that they just do and they complete, it's an ongoing type of thing that they have to manage in their life. And I think system questions is the first thing that you really want to look at and under. Yeah.

Aransas: And I honestly wouldn't worry about whether or not it's manipulative.

And I say this as someone who specializes in meaningful motivation with the express purpose of avoiding manipulative motivation, this is your product. Your product is change. You were in the business of transformation. You were in behavior change and without reflection. And I'm sure you know this very well without reflection there really.

It's almost never behavior change because we have to internalize the changes in order to appreciate the changes that we're making that service and don't [00:23:00] right. So you're actually giving them the information they need in order to take agency over their futures by asking these questions. So to me, it feels like a really essential part of any transformative offer.

Right. Yeah.

Shelia: And I love that actually asking a student about these, these systems. I think that makes a lot of sense. Uh, I'm curious. I know Dave, you were in the middle of a thought, so I definitely want you to finish, but I'm curious like how that translates, how you might see that translating up to the next level.

With the parent, right. Is this something that we would then say, look, we did this reflection, exercise with your student, look what they reported. How do you feel about these systems? That kind of thing.

Dave: I love that. Yes. And maybe

Aransas: even it translates into recommendations about these are ways you might support your students.

Right? Because it sounds like the work you're doing, isn't just. To help the student, but it's to help the parents feel more confident parenting their [00:24:00] students. Absolutely. Right. And so you're actually getting tailored data points, specific chefs, both that they can point to, to understand and appreciate the success their kid is making, even if that's not translating immediately to test scores, because it might not.

In every case, there's a lot of variables there just gives them better insight and hopefully a better appreciation of. The whole human that they're parenting.

Shelia: Yeah, totally. Well, here's another question, um, on this idea and I apologize if I'm getting too tactical, cause I love this idea of the day. So

Aransas: you're our kind of people.

That's

Shelia: great. As part of our Pathfinder program, every student is paired with an individual coach that meets with them on a weekly basis. You know, to work through all these sorts of things and the coaches, that person who works through the life wheel with them and sets those goals. I can see this reflection, exercise being very [00:25:00] valuable to do with the coach, but I wonder if you have thoughts on.

Is it better for the student to reflect with somebody else? Because if they, like, they may have hold back and say, oh yeah, coach, you know, your homework system is not really working for me, but I don't want to tell you that because I like you as a person. Um, so how do you, how do you manage that?

Aransas: I think that's a great question.

I, I do find that there is, I end up using Google forms for this a lot, just as a super hacky way to test these things, because it allows us to iterate rapidly and. There is a real power to creating extensions and space between sessions. So if you're having these sessions weekly, inviting the students to take this re this reflection as a prerequisite to attending the next session might even be really helpful because it gives them a moment to pause and reflect and to.

Set some clearer intentions for the sessions. So they don't just walk in as most [00:26:00] people do kind of living in the moment, right. They're like, okay, I'm here. What are we doing now? And, um, I think what you could do by, by opening up that conversation with some, some already documented shares could be really powerful.

It's definitely worth testing on.

Dave: Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, I just, I totally agree with what you're saying there, ANSYS, and I think. Reflection is an incredibly motivating thing. And so you can use reflection metrics as a way of motivating people to kind of keep moving forward. They can become part of milestones and so forth.

You can also use reflection as a technique. Measure the overall experience so that you know how to perform better as well. And it's to the second part here where you don't really need to tie it to a [00:27:00] milestone. In fact, you might not want to tie it to the product at all. You may want to ask for time that separate.

And disassociated from the, the individual tutor, uh, for them to do some exercises and then report back in some way, shape or form. And that will give you a read that will help you to understand and will also help them to kind of do the Metta Metta. Right. So you're when you ask them to reflect in the experience itself, that's.

But you kinda need them to Metta Metta. Uh, if you're, if you're going to, to really get some good feedback on what that experience is about, you know, other things that you may want to be asking about for that reflection metric include the impact that the overall experience or the journey that they've been on has had on them.[00:28:00]

Uh, something you might ask them, an actual reflection questions. Which I think is really important. And I think it's important to asking engagement questions. How engaged generally are you, how engaged do you feel like you have been over time? Uh, rather than, uh, were you engaged this last week? That's where you start to get into the time?

Well spent was this time well spent, you know, that's the, that's the question that you're asking close in. Overall, how do you feel? That's the reflection question. That's

Aransas: right. I think it's going to fit into three categories, right? Thought feeling behavior and identifying those chefs is going to give you again really important data points that inform and inspire your coaches to facilitate more meaningful conversations that feel more customized and more relevant.

And it's really exciting for us. To people to feel heard and seen. Yeah. Right. And [00:29:00] it's a lot easier to do if you let them tell you first. Cause then you actually have something real to reflect back instead of something assumed. And um, I think the, one of the things you'll want to consider too, though, is with all of this reflection we're talking about not overwhelming them.

Right. And so to stage this in such a way that it does feel like there were milestone moments to Dave's point where it feels like, Hey, we're moving into the next chapter. Let's take a moment to pause and reflect and use that. We'll use this to shape the next chapter, right? Um, the quick. The completion of the life wheel.

Yeah. That can happen quickly. It can happen repeatedly, really powerful to have repeated moments in any experience that people can, um, rely on and come to expect for the sake of psychological safety and comfort in that conversation. But also [00:30:00] so that they have the data points that come from that. But, but I do think that, um, chaptering it out will, will help people perceive that they're on.

And that this isn't just a moment in time, but that this is something that is building on itself over time.

Shelia: I think I'm having this sort of like moment over here right now. Um, this is definitely time well spent guys. Um, I know I am just kind of reflecting myself on. What measurements we've taken over time, right?

Since we started Cigna. And what was the goal of those measurements? And it was always to make sure we were doing a good job, right. It was a quality control measure. Sure. And I see, I hear you saying that these measurements can actually. Sort of fuel the transformation on the client or student side, as well as give us [00:31:00] feedback for improvements or customization.

Um, but also mark. Uh, as you were saying, chapters around us, uh, on this journey that they're on and help them know that they're on a journey, right? So now measurement changes from just a, something that serves us. Right. We're asking them to do a favor and tell us how we're doing. And that's, you know, I will be honest with you when we first started doing customer satisfaction surveys.

That's what they were like. Can you do. And give us a rating or tell us your NPS score. Um, and it's now changing this. It's actually a tool. It's an integral part of the service that we're offering. And it's, it's how we, um, kind of consolidate, um, the growth that they've had and move on to the next. I, I just, um, I'm in love with this.

This is

Aransas: amazing. I love to point out in terms of its alignment too, with your mission, that your, and I always think that's really exciting when you see that in organizations [00:32:00] where the organizational structure, the mission, the data collection, all along. And take a unified perspective. So you're an organization that provides a holistic service.

Now you can have metrics that are holistic and that serve the future customer. Yes, because you'll have a better product and service, but that also deeply serve the current.

Dave: I love that. I wish more companies had that paradigm shift that you just had. I guess you think about it. So often we're asked these customer satisfaction questions and they're like, how can we do a better job of taking care of you?

And that's great. But if what I think consumers actually want is data that shows how they're doing as well as how you're doing. As a company and you get that kind of data [00:33:00] in little dashboards, uh, when you're, you're using your phone or you're using your smartwatch or you've run a mile, they're used to, they want to have access to that data as well.

They want to know for themselves why it was time well spent or for themselves what reflection was about for themselves, what happens along the way with their milestones and so forth. So, so there, there really is an opportunity and I wish more companies understood that. I wish bankers understood that I wish tech companies understood it, but you got it right away.

Aransas: Doesn't surprise me at all, given the way you've approached creating this organization. Well, you're a good student, but you're also a holistic thinker and you are genuinely concerned for the development of these children. It isn't just about one thing. It is about all the things. [00:34:00] And, um, and I think those are the kinds of leaders we.

We all want to succeed. So Sheila, I'm really excited to see what you do with this. And like I said, we, we love people who go out and test and learn and try and put these things into action right away. So you sound pretty energized right now. And I wonder if you'd be willing to come back on the show and maybe three or six months and.

Tell us how things are going and continue learning together. I think that would be a blast. So I'm just extending the invitation right now. And, uh, we'll, we'll start working to put that together cause it'd be really fun to hear your reflections.

Wonderful. Thank you so much for being here with us for all of you listening here. Let's talk about the big takeaways on this, so, well, you know what I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you start Sheila. Can I put you on the spot and [00:35:00] ask you what you hope other experienced strategists will learn from this conference?

Yeah, I

Shelia: think that realization, I just kind of had, you know, maybe five minutes ago that Dave, you were saying you wish more people had. I think it's very hard to encourage that kind of paradigmatic shift. Right. But putting that out there as like, what, why are you measuring anything? What is the goal of you taking a measurement?

Who is it serving? Um, and, and questioning that at the outset. Could be very, very helpful in thinking about what to measure, when to measure what to ask. I now see measurement as not just something we, you know, we should do because we're a company that cares about our product, but, uh, something that we have to do.

And if we don't do it, actually the product that we're offering or the service that we're offering is incomplete. Um, and, and so that, that's a big takeaway for me.

Dave: I love that. [00:36:00] I think that what, where you're headed is where a lot of consumers already are, but most companies aren't companies do not see measurement as an actual part of the experience.

They see it as a separate after the fact type of way of evaluating the experience. But it is oftentimes the last touch point that we have with a product. And it's often. And what we need to do is find a way to make measurement a part of the experience so that it's enriching for both the individual, as well as the company.

I love that. I love that

Aransas: good stuff. Yes. And I think really looking at these time, well spent indexes to, to help, to get a sense of what your customer value. What matters to them, how they want to spend their time with you so that [00:37:00] you're not spinning your wheels on stuff that isn't that important to them, which is so easy to do, especially when we are big idea generators.

And we get enthusiastic about the possibility of ideas. I think it's just so valuable to validate those, by talking directly to the people who are engaging with them and finding out straight through there where, what matters to them, and then using that to optimize the experience for everyone who comes after, but especially for those who were there now.

So for those of you listening, if you enjoyed this episode, I would like to invite you to help us get the word out to more experienced strategist. We need your help. So the very best way that you can support this show is to like, and subscribe to the show. So whatever place you found this show, just go in there and write a little review.

If you [00:38:00] have some thoughts, even if you don't like it, that's helpful too. And let us know what you like, what you want more of and rate the podcast as well. Tell your friends too. We want all the opinions and, uh, we it'll help us bring you more of these quality shows with more incredible guests like Sheila, Sheila, thank you so much for joining us for folks who want to hear more about Cigna, where should they go?

Shelia: Uh, they can find us@cygneteducation.com. We have a great newsletter. Um, I talked to pretty much every client, so you will get me if you reach out to us. Um, and we look forward to engaging.

Aransas: Thank you so much, Sheila. Thank you for being who you are as a leader. Thank you for the mission. You're on. I, uh, I wish you much success as a citizen of[00:39:00]

Shelia: no pressure.

Aransas: Okay. We're all doing our part. Thanks for being here.

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