Experience Strategy Podcast: Time Well Spent in Employee Experience

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If you’re a fan of the Experience Strategy Podcast then you’re familiar with the idea of time well spent- in today’s episode Alain Hunkins author of CRACKING THE LEADERSHIP CODE who has more than 20 years in leadership training, adult learning and organizational development, is joining us to explore what time well spent looks like specifically in the employee experience - and how leaders can ensure that the time employees spend at work is valuable.

Voiceover: Hey, welcome to the experience strategy podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts, experienced nerds, Dave Norton and Aransas Savas.

Aransas: Welcome to the experience strategy podcast. I'm Aransas Savas.

Dave: And I'm Dave Norton. 

Aransas: And today we are talking about one of our favorite subjects. And if you're a fan of the Experience Strategy Podcast, then you're already familiar with the idea of time well spent. So in today's episode, Alain Honkens, author of Cracking the Leadership Code, a man who has a More than 20 years in leadership training, adult learning, organizational development, and culture change is joining us to explore what time well spent looks like specifically in the employee experience and how leaders can ensure that the time employees [00:01:00] spend at work is truly valuable and meaningful.

Alain, thank you for joining us today. 

Alain: Thank you so much, Aransas. And Dave, I'm thrilled to be here with you today. Thank you. 

Aransas: So, when we talk about time well spent, what we're really talking about is the value of the time spent engaged in any activity. When we talk about it with customers, we're talking about the value they place on the experience that the company is providing, knowing that the more valuable that experience is, the more value the customer will place on the company, the more likely they are to invest their time, money, and other resources in that relationship. Well, in our research, we see time and time again that the same is true in employee employer relationships. And what we find is that when we ask employees how they rank different aspects of employment, no [00:02:00] surprise getting paid is the most meaningful thing that happens.

It is. Bottom of the hierarchy, it's the foundational aspect of this, right? I don't get paid, what am I working for? But what's most interesting to me when I look at this research is that time and time again, the number two rated aspect is a sense of meaning and impact in the work that we do. And so my, my instinct is that as we unpack time well spent for Employees in these employment relationships, it's going to be that sense of value and impact that drive a sense of meaning in these relationships.

In your book, you talk a lot about how leaders can drive a sense of meaning and value in this relationship, so let's dive right into sort of the thesis of that book and how it relates [00:03:00] to this idea of time well spent. 

Alain: Sure, thanks. So interestingly enough, you know, if we think about at the central core, I love the way you kind of put it as a thesis, at the central core, if we think about leadership, Leadership is not about your position or your title.

At its core, leadership is a dynamic relationship that exists between two human beings. And what makes it so tricky and complex, I mean, everyone hears that and says, yep, got it. That makes sense. Got it. Good. What makes it really tricky is the fact that the quality of that relationship is never judged by the leader in terms of net net result. The quality of that relationship is based on the person who chooses to follow. Now, I appreciate it. You mentioned about the fact that, you know, customers, they choose to, you know, give your money, time, you know, and if they see value. And if we think about. Employees in an organization because, you know, we live in a knowledge work age whereby people are basically sharing their talents, but they're loaning them [00:04:00] to us on a daily basis, and they can choose to loan more of them.

They can choose to loan less of them, and it really depends on their perception of, as you mentioned, meaning. of sense of belonging, a sense of impact, a sense of, am I feeling valued and cared for? And so, you know, the research that I found is that, you know, for example, the number one thing that makes employees feel both productive and engaged at work is do they feel valued and cared for by their immediate supervisor?

Now, if there was ever a soft and fuzzy metric, That's it, right? And so the question is what are you as a leader doing now? I just had this conversation with a couple of coaches in the last today earlier this morning Where they're realizing because I think this is one of the challenges that I think a lot of leaders are facing today is the fact that many of us we have these formal leadership roles where we are leading teams of people but at the same time we have our own individual contributor creative projects that we're trying to get other stuff [00:05:00] done which means that we're wearing two hats and the problem for I think a lot of leaders is they are pulled more Gravitationally towards that individual contributor mindset.

And so what they see is the people that they lead is, Oh my gosh, this is just, this takes so much time. I don't have the time to do this. And you know, I think that the big shift that I, that I coach and counsel leaders on is you have to look at time with your people. As an investment rather than a cost.

And for some people that is just a huge paradigm shift because they see it. I have to get through this, get through this. If you treat people like tasks on your list. People are intuitive. They smell it out. They can go you don't really care about me that much You're trying to get me off your list off your task list when in fact, you know, one of the things that Particularly if you look at Millennials and Gen Z in the workplace, they prize is authenticity so if it's all about, you know being seen [00:06:00] as a Task getter done as it were.

Um, then people are going to not really buy into your leadership a whole lot. Mm-Hmm. . And so if you're recognized, what are you doing to make people feel truly valued, to be seen, to be heard, to be recognized, to be appreciated for all the things that they can possibly do. So I'd say that's a, that's a good place to start, is this, this dynamic, ongoing relationship.

Aransas: Hmm. I love that. It's interesting. I was talking to some folks today about the Uh, the perceived resistance that we have to tasks because maybe we felt like we were required or obligated to do them and I think that does come up so much in leadership and I'm hearing that in what you're describing there, this sense of, oh, I have to fill out this paperwork.

Oh, I have to do these performance reviews. Oh, there's this deadline and HR wants me to manage these people. But the truth is, right? Most of the time, these people [00:07:00] do, these leaders want success, they want engaged teams more than anything. They appreciate and understand the value of it, but it's the tasks associated with getting there that we have old, maybe resistance to.

I was sharing with somebody that when I have those moments in my own life, I've just started sort of repeating to myself what the real truth is for myself in that moment. And so, I will say. I really do want to do this. It's just that there's this quiet old association with obligation that makes me feel like it's an obligatory task.

Because I think you're right. People sniff out that when we are acting out of integrity, when we feel like we're doing something because we have to, not because we want to. And ultimately what we want from our teams is for them to want to be all in. And so if we're coming at it from obligation, they will come at it from obligation.

They will have resistance in kind with ours. 

Alain: Oh, very much [00:08:00] so. You know, 

Dave: I was thinking about what a paradigm shift It is that you're describing, because I think that there, you know, historically we've thought about, well, what kind of gifts can we give to our employees, what kind of benefits can we give to our employees, what kind, what, what What attracts them to work here?

Is it the gym that we've got on site? What is it that we're, we're providing? And that has been, oh yeah, this experience is time, has time value because of all these amenities. But what you're seeing is that it's the leader's responsibility to kind of, to nurture and to strengthen the worker. Or the employer, or the creative, or whoever it is that they're working with, and that that [00:09:00] is what constitutes time well spent.

That to me is, I'm like, oh man, I'm kind of stuck in an old paradigm. 

Alain: Huh. It's a really good point, Dave. I mean, the fact is, you know, we can have all the the foosball and ping pong tables and free lunches in the world, and that is not what makes for meaningful work. Like, the work itself, it needs to matter, and the environment in which people get to do the work needs to support a place where people feel that they can show up and be their best and do their best work.

And we all know that But those days that we feel like we're making progress towards meaningful goals are the most motivating days and the days that we feel we are just treading water or spinning our wheels and not getting anywhere. Those are days that we just feel stuck and just feels hopeless. And so it's so important that leaders have to recognize that we as leaders, we design environments in which people can either thrive or just flounder.

And I think what great leaders do [00:10:00] is they design those environments intentionally, right? They're very purposeful and what can I do that will make that happen? Whereas poor leaders just don't even realize that. And so they're still creating environments. They're just doing it by default. They're not really thinking through.

I mean, I'll give you an example, which I think probably will ring close to home for a lot of listeners, is this whole sense of, uh, The return to the office, right? So everyone goes remote and then coming back. And now you see a lot of companies that are mandating, you know, whether it's two days a week or three days a week in the office.

And I have a lot of clients working through this stuff. And so I ask them, I say, so, so you're mandating two days a week in the office. Now, let me ask you on those two days, what's different about those two days when people come into the office than when they're working from home? Like the bad answer is like, what do you mean?

It's like, because what ends up happening is people are now commuting into the office and they're doing tasks they could do easily at home on their laptops, but now they're just doing it from the office because someone said they had to. Now, if you want something that's a [00:11:00] recipe for people getting ticked off with just a random because it just, it's, it's closing down their autonomy and like they were autonomous fine.

So what's the real reason behind it, as opposed to other leaders are realizing. If we're going to ask people to come into the office, we have to provide experiences when they're here that they just can't get at home. So what are we doing to build the face to face relationship time so people go, wow, this is what we're doing.

And for some of my clients, that means one or two days a month that they're doing that. You know, there's no wrong answer. I think, I think that I should put it this way, is that if you're spending your time Should people be in the office two days a week or three days a week? You're asking the wrong question.

The real questions, and I think this is in general, the real questions are, what can we do so that people can be as engaged and productive as possible? And then create solutions based on that question as opposed to what's the mandate on number of days. Number of days is an activity based metric. It is not a productivity based metric.

And so really thinking about what can we do to make sure that people are as engaged and productive as possible. [00:12:00] 

Aransas: So good. And that's exactly the right distinction, right? So one is time well spent. It is allowing people to. Do the work in the right environment for that job. And I think so many of the questions you write where we're trying to come up with equitable metrics and we're so worried about fairness and rules and getting people to comply with rules that we forget to ladder up the questions and say, well, what, what's really best for the business?

And that's ultimately happy, productive employees. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dave: I think there's also like, um, and I've heard Elon Musk actually say this, that there's this idea that if you're working from home, you're wasting time. And so somehow there's a delineation that working Working in an office is not a [00:13:00] waste of time, whereas working at home is for some leaders.

And that's not true in many cases, right? Because it can be a real waste of time if you're working in the office, but you're doing things that aren't really leading to that higher level of personal productivity that you were describing.

Alain: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I mean, the research on interruptions, for example, says, you know, anytime somebody comes by to your office and says, Hey, do you got a minute?

It's never just a minute, let alone a minute. But the, you know, let's say you're in the middle of a task and you are interrupted. So the research that I've seen has shown that it takes people an average of 23 minutes to get back to the place that they were in when they were interrupted. So and just think about your own experience from that.

So recognizing is that yeah, like there's so many potential interruptions in the office and I think that sometimes, frankly, it's a lot more honest if some of the leaders of these [00:14:00] organizations that are mandated, going back to what you said, Aaron, it's about compliance. If people just were honest and said, you know what, we want you back in the office three days a week and here's why.

It's just because I have high control needs and I just would feel better if you're here. That's honest, you know, but that's, I think really what it comes down to. And the idea is that if you can't see it, it must not be happening, you know? And so are you really willing to trust are, you know, do you really have trust that these are responsible, autonomous adults who can get things done now when you had to trust, when the pandemic happened, you had no choice.

Guess what? People went home and they got work done. So what is it that you can't continue to trust? And I think going back to this idea of compliance, you know, so much of human resources, which by the way is a very interesting term, the history of that comes out of the industrial age where, you know, humans were just another set of resources, just like the capital equipment and we're thought so that way.

But if you think about that was born in a cauldron of fear. And control and power. Um, and compliance was the name of the game. You know, we want people to, you [00:15:00] know, basically make X number of widgets per day. And the thing is in our digital age of creative knowledge work, that kind of compliance. Is not going to produce the best work possible.

It's much more about asking questions, facilitating conversations, getting new ideas and creating better solutions. So it's just, it's really fascinating times because, you know, post pandemic, we don't have a real clear playbook about the way this is going. And so you have a lot of different pockets of people making stuff up as they go.

And some, in some cases, better in some cases, worse. 

Aransas: Yeah, it's an interesting build on another piece of work that our, our expertise is formed on, which is this idea of the experience economy. And what you're talking about is commoditization, right? And people were commoditized essentially, uh, in, in earlier eras, but as you point out now, What we are [00:16:00] focused on, what we derive value and meaning from at work, for the most part, is the experience.

And that is even in the most technical of, of fields. And so when we talk about experience, right, the, the value of experience is entirely situational. It's entirely based on the individual. And, um, one of our former grass guests, Craig Lutz, talked about some. Mac stuff research he did with employees of a big bank and he saw vast geographic differences in within the same company within the same role and for us it just really brought home this idea that as employers we have to make a consistent practice of asking people what they derive meaning and value from but if we are going to make one big broad assumption I I would say that it's impact.

I need to believe that the time I spend with you is [00:17:00] impactful. And ultimately, if I believe the time I'm spending in a mandated office setting is invaluable, it is lacking impact, then I am going to be less engaged. Is that fair from the research that you're doing, Alain? 

Alain: Yeah. Yeah, very much so. I mean, really what it comes down to, and there's been lots of different areas where people are focusing on these ideas of impact and also sense of purpose, you know, we can call it meaning, purpose, mission. I mean some of these words get used interchangeably, but they're all pointing to the same thing, which is basically we all know, I mean, on a per you don't even need the research, just like ask yourself, on days that you get up and you feel like what you're doing makes a difference in the world, don't you bring more energy to what you're doing?

Of course you do, because as opposed to feeling like, oh, I have to go through, I have to, right? Versus I get to, I want to, right? This I have to is a sense of obligation, as opposed to, you know, I get to be able to focus on something that really does make a difference. And I think it's so important, you know, this is true [00:18:00] in small organizations, but particularly in complex organizations where the line of sight may not be so clear, is to help people to see.

How the work they do is making a difference in the lives of their customers. How they are improving the quality of the life of their customer in some way. Because really, there should be that kind of line of sight for literally every single product or service. Because otherwise, why would it exist? So, it's just, and it's important for leaders to do that.

And there's a lot of different ways to do that. I mean, an obvious way would be, are you creating opportunities to have your customers come in and tell their stories? You know, Medtronic, for example, the medical device company, is famous for having employee town halls where they would bring in patients that were, whose lives were saved.

By their medical products. And you know, there was never a dry eye in the house apparently, because you think about just the difference that it can make. It's really quite stunning. So it's just realizing that, uh, we have to be as leaders, what are the stories we're telling, you know, and going back to the experience [00:19:00] economy.

Yeah. You know, you think about experiences. Ultimately, when you have an experience, after the experience, you then have the story of the experience. And so, recognizing how do we craft compelling stories that are going to, uh, excite people to want to give their best on a regular basis. 

Dave: You know, one of the questions I have for you, I wonder if you've given any thought to Um, knowledge workers and the impact of artificial intelligence on how knowledge workers create an impact with their companies.

You know, we, we have historically thought about knowledge workers as being hired for their knowledge, right? And for the, and now you've got like tools that can help you write up a legal. Um, argument in a matter of seconds can [00:20:00] help you program a whole pieces of code. What's the impact on the employee and, and how do leaders.

Adjust. Do have you, have you thought about that at all? 

Alain: I'm starting to think about this. I'm certainly having a lot of conversations with colleagues about this. 'cause, you know, uh, they're saying that the, the rates of improvement with AI is just over the next 18 months is gonna be stupendously huge compared to where it's been already.

Um, what I'm seeing is, you know, I mean, as I've sort of been dabbling with AI for myself is, uh, is that. You know, AI right now, and again, this could change in the course of 18 months, for sure. Um, but, you know, in terms of now, what it can do with kind of the baseline, let's say, for example, writing out a legal argument or writing an article, is that the, the quality of what's coming out still needs human touch, still needs some tweaking around getting, getting it getting it to the level of quality. I mean, certainly, [00:21:00] for example, if I'm writing an article for Forbes, which I do once a month, um, I can go to AI and get a topic to kind of give me a good writing prompt and starter, but the quality of the work, it feels frankly mechanical. So, it doesn't, not something I would ever publish, but it gives me some good ideas to build off of which saves me time.

And so, you know, really thinking about how this is going to evolve. When the when the A. I. S. Quality capability catches up to, you know, humans. Well, that's a really interesting question. And so I don't I don't have an answer for that one, but it's gonna be it's definitely gonna be something that's gonna shift.

And I think what's gonna be left is gonna be things that, you know, a machine cannot ever replicate. And that's gonna be things like empathy, things like, um, There's gonna be a certain level of synthesis, um, and understanding how things fit into the big picture and being able to do strategic and analytical thinking, um, and critical thinking about what needs to happen or what needs to go into the [00:22:00] AI.

Um, those are the kind of things that I don't think are gonna get replaced anytime soon. But, uh, it's a great question. Hmm. Thanks. 

Aransas: And as we've said before on this show, I think that what we will find is that humans will hopefully have even more satisfying and impactful roles because they will be supercharged by technology and their gifts will be more meaningful and readily apparent.

So, you know, if you talk to people who are doing sort of less challenging work, um, less mentally, intellectually challenging work, oftentimes it's, it's hard to see. The impact or find the satisfaction in those tasks. But if we are starting from a higher order spot, I think there is potential for even greater employee satisfaction within that.

I'd like to get really tactical with you for [00:23:00] the last section of this. Sure. You work with a lot of leaders in a lot of different sectors who are asking these questions. What are some of the specific actions or changes you're seeing leaders making that are making a difference in their organizations? 

Alain: So, one of the things, that's a great question, um, one of the things that I'm seeing, and this is a lot of leaders are coming and saying, you know what, help me to understand how can I lead better remotely, right?

So I'm just, you know, I feel like my people aren't here as much. I feel like I'm not as connected. So one of the changes that I see that smart leaders are doing is they're being much more intentional around connecting. Um, specifically, uh, taking some time and checking in with their people as people before they get into task mode.

You know, it's so easy because the quantity and the volume, uh, the volume of the workload and just the speed at which things are going, people, it's so we could spend all [00:24:00] day every day just like talking about the task and the project and what's going to get done. And I've been coaching and advising leaders and training them on specific tools. I'll give you an example. So a check in, something as simple as here's three questions that you can use in your one on ones. You could use them in your team meetings. Let's say you have a weekly team meeting. So take, let's say you have a team of 10 people. You can do this check in in five minutes.

Once you kind of get up and running with this, like 30 seconds a person, it might take a little longer at the beginning, but three simple questions. The first question is how are you feeling today? And I always counsel leaders that I ask for level two or level three answers to that question. You can't just say, I'm fine, how are you?

Um, so that's kind of a, kind of a dancing away from the question. So it's really like, how are you feeling? And what's interesting about that level two or three is that frankly, is after the pandemic. People are okay with that because we've had that experience. I'm sure you had this experience where people were like, how are you?

No, how are you really doing? How are you? Because like, this was an opening in the field of realizing, oh yeah, people have human lives outside of [00:25:00] work. We're all three dimensional people who are dealing with, in the pandemic, it was literally dealing with life and death and safety and security. So these issues came up.

So the question number one is how are you feeling? Question number two is what's distracting you or what's on your mind? What's keeping you from being present? And question three is how can I or if it's a group, how can we support you? And it's amazing, you know people sometimes at the beginning think oh my gosh This is going to devolve into some group therapy session or something No, it's not It's just being a human being and just giving people a chance to check in and by actually verbalizing all that stuff That is unspoken and they're already feeling and thinking it just gives it a place to land And then they're actually freed up to focus on the tasks and the projects at hand.

So that's a simple example of something that you can do and then make it a routine and turn it into a ritual so people can expect it's coming. One of the things that people crave is a sense of security, safety. And safety can come in a lot of forms, but one of the things that creates safety [00:26:00] is rhythm right? One of the things we love about the cycle of the year, like we're recording this just after Thanksgiving in the U. S. I mean, we all have our Thanksgiving things that we come to expect, and that's true of holidays. It's just what can you do to create a certain sense of routine and comfort and safety in that?

And so a check in is a way that start to help people to feel that they can lean into being themselves more fully at work as opposed to feeling like they've got to put up a wall and kind of fake it. And just the research that I've recently seen from Deloitte is that about it's about 61 percent of U. S employees feel the need to cover their identities in some ways because they don't feel safe actually being fully themselves. So whatever you can do to break those walls down and help people to feel honest with you and oh by the way, uh, Pro tip for leaders, if you want your people to be connected and vulnerable with you about what's honest with them, you need to be a little honest with them as well.

And I like to say, I call it professional grade vulnerability. That means you don't have to share your deepest, darkest secrets, but it's helpful for them to see that you're a [00:27:00] human being and show them that. Yep, you deal with stuff too, whether it's, you know, could be a kid who's sick, an aging parent. I mean, we all, you know, you don't have to go too far down your list, you'll find something.

So there are ways to be vulnerable and honest with people because that creates psychological safety and all the research that, you know, Amy Edmondson has done at Harvard has shown that the number one thing that makes teams perform better is that they feel a sense of psychological safety. So that's just one example.

Aransas: Great stuff. Great stuff. And it, it, I, I smiled to myself because I think For, for decades, uh, we have relied on giving people lots of food and alcohol to make them feel closer or a sense of belonging. It's like been this old idea that if you get everybody drunk or you set up a ping pong table, people will feel a sense of that psychological safety, but the truth is [00:28:00] it's so much less expensive.

And it's that whole idea of slowing down to move more quickly. And so really, I think that's the key takeaway from what you're saying here is to slow down as leaders really. Cherish the moments to be present as a human being in order to be a leader and use that as the foundation to move fast, to move efficiently, to make an impact by having highly engaged and highly energized employees.

Alain: So true, so important and I think it means slowing down. It also takes, I mean, you said it's a lot less expensive, which is true, but it also takes a level of emotional maturity and intelligence on the part of a leader to be able to be the adult who can do that as opposed to just like. You know, the kids are running the candy store.

You know, it's being able [00:29:00] to recognize, yeah, you know, this, some adult needs to lead this conversation and to be comfortable with people because how are you feeling or what's distracting you? Are you okay with people saying whatever and being like, thank you. I hear you. You know, I hear you. Thank you. And that takes some practice.

If you, if you're not used to it, that could be really outside your comfort zone. And as you know, so many leaders wind up in the roles because they were good technical experts and whatever they were, right? They're a software engineer. They're now the software engineering manager. They're a sales person.

They're now the sales manager and you might, and they don't have those skills. And so that's where I like to think that, you know, one of the things in our business, in our firm here is that we do is try to Help people to grow those skills because these are all learnable, teachable things. And once you've seen it modeled, then you can start doing it.

But unfortunately, a lot of leaders don't really have a lot of the role modeling to be able to pull on, to help them become better at this. 

Aransas: It's so true. Well, all the more reason to feel grateful that you're doing the work you're doing out in the world, that you've written this book, Cracking the [00:30:00] Leadership Code.

Listeners, I totally encourage you to read this. You get a great sense here of what Alain's work is about, but also the thoughtful and practical tone to the work. Thank you so much for joining us here today. And for those of you listening, This is not a conversation that is just for senior executives.

Every employee in every organization sits in a leadership role. And every employee in every organization has the opportunity to create meaningful employee experiences. And whether it is... With the people you report up to, or down to, or across from, there are opportunities to lead, and I like to think of this as leading from the side, from, uh, from the top, from the [00:31:00] bottom, and it's all leadership, and it all has the potential to create greater meaning and impact.

Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening to us. As always, you find us at the experience strategy podcast. com where you'll find every single episode, as well as transcripts, notes, and ideas that we hope will help you create more impact. For your customer and your company. 

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