Experience Strategy Podcast: Transformational Travel

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Today we are joined by Jake Haupert and Jorge Perez, thought leaders and entrepreneurs in transformational travel. We explore why travel is the perfect launchpad for the transformation economy; how transformational experiences differ from our traditional ways of looking at categories like healthcare, finance, retail, technology and beyond; which customer types seek transformation and why they value it. Most importantly, we talk about how to effectively deliver on transformation.

Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Experience strategy Podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts, experience nerds, strategists, Dave Norton and Aransas Savas.

Aransas: Welcome to the Experience Strategy Podcast. I'm Aransas Savas.

Dave: And I'm Dave Norton.

Aransas: Today, Dave and I are joined by Jake Haupert and Jorge Perez. They're both thought leaders and entrepreneurs in transformational travel. Jake considers himself a guardian of the planet and really of the transformative power of travel. He and the organizations that he participates in and leads are dedicated to guiding people, places, and tourism in transforming, thriving, and becoming more conscious and regenerative.

Jorge Perez is a [00:01:00] pioneer, there's no other word for him. He's really been a leader in conservation through adventure travel and private land conservation. He's the founder of the Tierra del Volcan and award-winning travel company and former president of the The Ecuadorian Ecotourism Association, as well as the South American Ambassador for the Transformational Travel Council.

Jake and Jorge are joining us today for an important round table discussion on transformation as applies to the lens of travel. Our hope is that you as a listener, can tune into the stories that they're sharing and whether you are working in the space of technology or retail or finance or apparel or healthcare or you name it.

You can hear within their story the potential to drive meaningful customer transformation through your customer [00:02:00] experience. Jake, Jorge, thank you so much for joining us today. I want to start by talking about where you're focused now. You both have such exciting and influential backgrounds, and I'm curious where that's led you today.

What are you up to right now?

Jorge: Thank you for having me here. It's such a pleasure to share with you today. I will say that my two major goals will be conservation and touching people's life through adventure travel. So I will say that we could talk about adrenaline fuel conservation which is this mixture between adventure travel that will lead you into connecting to nature but also to yourself.

Aransas: What do you hope to achieve in 2023 related to that?

Jorge: That's a big question, so one of the goals is to be able to take tourism to the next level, in, in every aspect that we're involved. So within our lodges, we have three lodges in the Andes of [00:03:00] Ecuador, to get more unique experiences that are thriving. We have invested in 2022 that 50% of our energy, of our main lodge will come from solar panels or sustainable sources. We are carbon negative company, but we are promoting that more and also getting more involved within transformational experiences because we have developed a lot of very nice transformational experiences, but we have realized that you have two different types of guests related to transformational travel.

Those that want to be fully immersed in this type of experience and those that it's still a lot out of their comfort zone. We want to develop tools that allow you to more softly connect you to these transformational opportunities that tourism has to offer.

Aransas: Exciting. Yeah, and I'm looking forward to talking more about who those people are. A quick check-in with you, [00:04:00] Jake. What's calling you and taking your attention these days?

Jake: It's been years. Primarily focused on changing the world through travel. I know that sounds big and audacious, but that's what we're doing and we're doing that at the Transformational Travel Council. We provide transformative education and we've got this incredible global community from all sectors and categories of tourism that are really working to elevate travel to its highest potential. And so that's taking all of my focus and then some, including my time with you guys at the Transformation Economy Collaborative diving into, how we can define and lead and measure transformation as we go forward.

Aransas: Yeah. It's a real thrill to do that work together, to understand what transformation means to travelers and to customers across categories really. But there's so much we don't understand about what people really value in that space. So I'm excited to talk more about that today. So as we bridge into this [00:05:00] conversation, I'm curious to hear from you, Jake, first, why you believe transformation is so important to the world and to the shape of travel.

Jake: In this moment, everyone's talking about transformation and shifting the paradigm. And, coming off the pandemic, we all had an opportunity to be maybe a little bit more introspective than we have been in the past. And I think that's really important for our own evolution.

I think that many of us around the world are waking up to this idea that we can really be more intentional about, how we live and the choices that we make and how we can be better versions of ourselves. In regard to travel and tourism.

I think travel was really born out of this idea of stretching and learning and growing into new ways of being and engaging the world. And I think the ripple effect of that, that brings positive benefits to our families and our homes in our communities and the places that we visit.

Aransas: Yeah. And I know one of the things you've talked a lot about is the unintended consequences of global travel [00:06:00] and the effect those have had on the world. How do you see transformation as playing a role in reshaping the way travel happens?

Jake: Yeah. I think that the last 20 years as travel really became more accessible. To many, it lost touch with its soul and got quite disconnected from the reasons why we travel, and that was rooted in questing and pilgrimage and rite of passage really looking in.

I think that travel has got into the OTA model of make it easy and convenient, but I think that also leaves it empty. And I think that as travel continues to evolve and understand and really embrace its inherent potential to create positive change within individuals and the lives that travel on tourism touches. I think given some of the developments around flight shaming and, given the climate collapse and all of the arguments that are coming up on that level, that are absolutely fascinating as travel starts to reinvent itself and response to some of these changes. [00:07:00] I think that most important and where travel and tourism is going is, they're gonna have to realize that real change comes from within.

And so when we talk about travel, is there a better venue for us to spend some time looking inward? And so I think that as travel evolves, we'll really start to embrace this transformation economy as this catalyst for global change

Aransas: I love that. And I know you, Jorge, have been one of the early leaders in applying some of this thinking. You mentioned at the beginning that you intentionally designed transformative experiences for your guests. Can you give us an example of a way in which you do that?

Jorge: Yeah. We have different programs depending on the transformational side. We have developed three concepts.

One is related to conservation. The other one is to self-development and the other is for family connections. The conservation one is called 25 seconds and it's designed to let you understand and connect to human evolution, and the reason [00:08:00] of the name is because if we take the planet Earth and compare it to 24 hours, humans have been in this planet for 25 seconds. And so it's so common that we think that we're saving the planet, and no, we're not saving the planet, we're saving ourselves.

The planet was able to survive without us. 23 hours, 59 minutes and 35 seconds. When you understand where in time you are, what we do with this we is we invite you to participate in a play that has three acts, the beginning, evolution, and the future. And in, in each one invite you to bring your inner child and we take you to Galapagos, for example.

First to the Amazon basin to share with the local indigenous that are hunters and gatherers, to understand the humans beginning, why we are like we are. A lot of our behaviors, even though we think that we're so evolved and different from our past are based on our beginning when we were cavemans, when we were hunter, gatherers.

So let's understand that. And then we go to the Galapagos [00:09:00] again to understand the evolution where Darwin developed his theory. But the concept is to show you what Darwin got right and what Darwin got it wrong, and also why it is different with humans. When we're talking about evolution, we have natural evolution, but we also have conscious evolution and from what we know, we humans are the only ones that understand or are able to develop this consciousness towards evolution. And then we take you to the Andes to explore the future, to imagine where as a species we want to be on the next 25 seconds. So still having fun and still exploring, still seeing some of the most beautiful places in the planet while using it to understand why we are like we are, but also to see our future. So that's 1 example. The other example, for example, for families is that somehow we are disconnected now and it's difficult with all the technology and all the [00:10:00] noise in our lives to get connected between teenagers and parents.

And so we offer a space to disconnect and reconnect and through the right facilitation, we guide you into having the right conversations in a family, and then being able to establish family values. And so with this, we do some horse encounters in which horses will reflect what's going on in your family.

There's a moment where your kids will write you a letter, that is a guided letter so that parents could understand where their kids are. It's so common to hear parents who say, oh my God, I didn't know my kids was there, so those are the kind of programs and then you are able to establish some family values with certain tools, that are visual tools like a vision board in which you are able to have an agreement between the groups and get into a commitment. So those are a couple of examples of journeys that we are offering that are super beautiful and life-changing.

But at the same time it keeps with the incense of travel, which is [00:11:00] seeing these new places connect to their energy, connect to the planet, to understand, to see other cosmo visions, for example. Because somehow we, westerners tend to think that our way is the right way, but there's so many different ways.

There's so many other ways to understand the planet and for me, the beautiful thing of traveling is that you could leave everything behind and be whomever you want to be. But at the same time, there's only one thing that you could not leave behind, and that's yourself.

So why don't you use that to understand yourself better? Why don't you use that time to see yourself without judging, without these bias that you might have about yourself and connect deeper as you never done it before. And travel is the perfect tool for that. And that's why we connect transformation with travel.

And also related to conservation. I think that global warming is not an environmental problem, is a human problem. It's also a social [00:12:00] crisis. So that's something that we could explore later, but it's part of what we want with this.

Aransas: Wow. Yeah, and I am thrilled to hear the way that you're approaching this.

As Jake mentioned early on, we, along with Jake and a number of other leading companies, are participating right now in what we call the Transformation Economy Collaborative. And it is a think tank and research process and innovation study and activation for so many companies that are focused on leading, effective and impactful customer transformations for their company.

 Together we're really looking at how to make those as impactful and meaningful as possible, both for customers and for companies. And so part of the interesting thing about this is that we're not just looking at travel. We're getting to look at travel alongside what transformation means in finance and what transformation means in [00:13:00] technology and in retail and these wide-ranging categories, and what we're finding is that transformation follows a pretty consistent flow. But when we talk to the youngest people and we ask them what transformation means, the first thing they talk about is travel. Because it is, I think, for so many people, the first notion that we have that if we get out of our normal way of being and looking at the world, we can start to see something new that leads us to ultimately be something new or to shift in some big or even small way. And so as we look at it, what we see happen is that people have some sort of catalyst, right? Either some really challenging moment happens, or some big desire in them emerges to see the world differently and Jake used the word learning through some sort of experience or stimuli they start to expand their [00:14:00] perspective. And see the world a little differently, which ultimately then causes them to act differently. And finally to feel differently. And as you described, the transformational journeys that you've designed for your customers across these three different goals each one of them really consciously and intentionally built in those moments. And we're so excited to help so many customers and companies learn how to do that in a way that has impact for both the bottom line as the businesses, which ultimately is essential if we're all gonna keep doing this, but also every bit is importantly, it's impactful and effective for the customer, the traveler in your case and in your case for the world, for the places that these people are visiting.

And so it is a really beautiful, cohesive vision of transformation that you've painted for us. Thank you, Jorge.

So Dave, as [00:15:00] you're listening to this what questions do you have or what is it about the space of transformational travel that you feel has been most surprising or exciting?

Dave: Oh, the whole thing. The whole category is just so fun. I was talking to a friend the other day and she was describing what her idea of transformational travel was and I was kinda explaining what we were doing. She's like man, that's exactly what I need. Because when I go on trips, I tend to focus on just relaxing, enjoying myself, kind of pleasure-seeking that hedonic component to travel. But travel can have a purpose and you can still have a really enjoyable time. Jorge, I would love to go on one of those excursions with you. That would be absolutely fantastic to see those different places and to see them through different eyes. [00:16:00] And so this idea of having a purpose when you travel, that could be a higher purpose, that could be an important purpose to you and trying to fulfill on that because it's not enough to just have the purpose. You've got to be able to fulfill, to deliver on that, either for yourself or with the assistance of travel companies. And I would pay a premium for that type of an experience, right?

I would pay more for that type of an experience than I would for spa treatments or things of that nature. So I think it's a win-win as companies are trying to find places to generate more revenue. They need to be thinking about transformation, personal transformation as a part of that. And Jake, I see nodding your head in agreement.

Aransas: What do you wish these traditional travel companies understood, Jake? [00:17:00]

Jake: You read my mind. Yeah. I think travel has just fallen into this bad habit of like transformation just happens on its own and it's this epiphany or breakthrough. And maybe in the past it has been like we've all had those moments, but where we're going and what I'm really excited about is shifting it from this passive engagement to active engagement. To be moved, we have to move more than our feet. We gotta move our hearts and our minds. Which is what Dave is getting at there with purpose. And right now, for the most part, with transformation and transformational travel being a trend in the industry it's actually doing more harm than good in my opinion, because it is setting travelers up with more expectations, right? Which just gets in the way of the beautiful gifts that travel provides including transformation. So I'm really excited to see how the industry evolves and starts to embrace this as something that you can be more intentional about. Bringing more frameworks and tools and practices to really start to learn to guide transformations.

I think the industry's gonna be slow on that to be honest. But once they start to open up to [00:18:00] it, I think everyone's going to recognize the potential and start to look at travel through completely different lens. Honestly, I think that as Jorge said, we're disconnected.

There's a lot of noise and there's a lot of chaos. And I, think a lot of us are struggling more in our lives than we may lead onto. And then you talk about this idea of transformation and then it's incredibly uncomfortable. It's a loaded word. I think that, people, most of us feel a barrier to engaging in anything that makes you feel like you're going to be changed, even though you might be desiring change, the idea of activating change is a completely different thing. I think that the actual term itself seems to be a bit of an obstacle for us at this stage even though most of us are craving it.

Dave: One of the things that Jake said that I think is really important is it's easy to promise transformation and it's much harder to deliver. But we, as experience strategists, we know that you can't promise something that you can't deliver. You actually have to try to find ways [00:19:00] to deliver on transformative experiences. Otherwise the whole entire category could fall apart before we even have an opportunity to explore it, because customers will back away and say, that's not what is of interest to me.

Aransas: Yeah, and I think it is not dissimilar to the trajectory of wellness as a word, as an idea.

It was fringe for a long time. It was something that felt like it was only for the elite and maybe those who were outside the norm and what we've watched over the last decade and especially the last five years. Is that it went to peak, and now it's in a post-peak zone where it has become so pervasive that we no longer relate to the idea or the concept in any of the same ways that we used to as consumers.

And I say that as somebody who worked with the Weight [00:20:00] Watchers team and Oprah Winfrey and so many others in those early days of trying to rebrand a weight-focused outcome based company to a wellness-focused company in-house. Just radical that seemed at one point and now it's meh. Yeah. That's what it does.

I do think that we ha we're going to see a lot of parallels there. But to Jorge's point, he said at the very beginning he's got these two customers. He's got the customer who's I'm all in, I'm dreaming a transformation. Sign me up for the immersion. And then he's got the others that are like, let me just dip my toe in the water.

Give me a little bridge to transformation. And maybe I'm not even ready to admit to Jake's point that I want transformation. Secretly, I kind of wonder if I do. And so it's like these two consumers, and there's a lot more interesting segmentation within there, of course, and a lot of different needs to meet.

But I do think you're right Jorge, that there are these two camps of people in [00:21:00] their thinking about it. And so as we talk about it, it is a matter of finding language and storytelling that helps people perceive the value in a way that's accessible to them and doesn't create distance between their goals and their understanding of these themes.

Dave: And Aransas, I've heard you say a number of times that people aren't always ready to go. Nope. And I think you're gonna have lots of customers that are gonna go on transformational travel for the pure purpose of enjoying it, not because they're interested in the transformation. There's nothing wrong with that, and we should not disparage in any way the fact that they're not ready for a transformation. In fact from a business standpoint, you're more likely to get 'em back the second time cause maybe they're more ready the second time or the third time or the fourth time [00:22:00] to really go through that transformation. It's not a lose situation when somebody goes on transformational travel, but they're not quite prepared for it.

I think it can be a really positive thing as long as they recognize it in themselves that they weren't quite ready for it. And you're okay. You're not trying to push it in some way, shape, or form.

Aransas: That I think is the most important piece of what you're saying there. It's about getting to know the traveler or the customer in such a way that your solution, your offering is responsive to their needs and not just because it's what you want them to do.

Jake: Yeah I'd jump in and say that a lot of times it's just a matter of recentered it around it can still be playful. You're still gonna have great food and wine. You're still gonna go to the beach. You're just gonna be a little bit more intentional, a little bit more aware, a little bit more present, right?

If you're asked anybody, why do they want to go on a trip? I think it would come down to, I wanna feel more alive and when we feel more alive, [00:23:00] we have moments of clarity, we gain confidence. We have moments of calm. All of these things lead to an awareness that even if you aren't, actively seeking transformation, you're changing, you're evolving, right?

Especially when you're in different cultures, different places, and different languages. So a lot of it's just flipping that switch. And Dave's point, you might not be setting out to transform on the first one. But I'm the second one, something shifted in me last time.

You know what were the conditions? What was I doing in that moment to create that epic travel story that I had that inspired some change when I got home?

Aransas: Yes. I think that's a good point too. If we do it well, and it creates individual impact, the stories tell themselves in the most authentic way, which is through word of mouth.

Jorge: My feeling is that what has changed from the way we traveled in the past and how we travel now is that technology has changed a lot. So maybe people of our age is more able to remember that when you used to travel, you were really able to disconnect from home. Calling [00:24:00] back home was difficult, was expensive. You did have emails, but they were not what they are today. So when you were on the new destination, we didn't have mobile phones, so we were able to really connect to the new destination, but now we're never able to unplug from home. We're always connected to home. We're always connected to work, we're always connected to home problems. The news, social media and so before I think it was easier for you to change because you were really unplugged from home, from the problems, from what you left behind. But now we have a lot more connection and that makes it more difficult to disconnect to, to get really immersed into the new culture, into the new place.

And that's where transformational travel makes sense. Because then you start creating those opportunities to happen. And for me, people that will get involved is those that have already traveled. If it's your first time abroad, it's your [00:25:00] first time that you leaving home, all the noise, all the new places, all the new smells will transform you somehow.

And a lot of that transformation, we do not realize it until we go back home. It's when we go back home that we realize, wow, this is how much I changed. But then when you start traveling more and more then you start to understand that it is a good tool and you want to get more immersed.

But from my perspective, in traditional travel. If we just allow people to set an intention when they travel. That very small difference in how you start your journey, with an intention and a different intention that goes a bit beyond seeing a new place.

And of course you could take the horse to water, but you could not force it to drink. So you could not promise transformation. You just put the options and experiences, but at the same time, you need to be open to it and sometimes even when you're [00:26:00] not open, you realize that transformation has happened when you go back home. So I think that's part of the beauty of it.

Aransas: I am so glad you brought that up, Jorge. We recently launched the 2023 Experience Strategy Trend Report, and one of the trends that we talk about is the integration of wellbeing and the role of intention setting in guiding an experience, especially when we are talking about effectively meeting our traveler or customer's needs.

And I reached out to Jake because he knows everyone and said, who do you believe is doing the best job in this space? And he shared with me a couple of companies that he's worked with that have brought intention and reflection very mindfully into a central role of the Traveler's experience.

So I wonder, Jake if you could just [00:27:00] share a couple of examples that you've seen.

Jake: Yeah. There's this organization in Portugal called Walking Mentorship. And Jao is the owner and their ally members of the TTC. And he uses the concept of pilgrimage and walking as this opportunity to go through these transformations.

So he runs these small group walking trips all throughout Spain and Portugal and Italy. And everyone goes and they engage in a process well before they land in the destination, once they're on a walk, and when they return. And a lot of that's centered around getting the individuals connected to their motivations.

Why are they there? Where are they now? Where do they want to be after that journey? So he's got a really beautiful process that lays it out in front of the individual says, this is why you're here and this is how you're gonna engage.

And you're gonna have these moments of observation and reflection. You're gonna have these moments where you get to walk with someone that you've never met before. And just really grounds the experience in a primal way of just in that rhythm of walking through the countryside.

[00:28:00] And I hear all the time from stories of their clients that have these, small T transformations, but also these big T transformations. And I think they're a wonderful example that some of an organization that has totally embraced transformation and transformational travel and have been doing it for quite some time.

There's quite a few of those smaller organizations that have been ahead of the curve and always rooted in catalyzing travel for change. But I think, most of the larger enterprise organizations they're still out of touch and it's really difficult to put in framework and processes that guide transformations, which is one of the things I'm really excited about with the Collaborative that we're in, is to make this accessible for most, and to have processes that can be, and are implementable.

Aransas: So what would you like to see these big top-tier enterprises do in the transformational travel space as an entry point?

Jake: I came across this data and American Express Trend report that came out today. And I was really excited to see that 62% of [00:29:00] the individuals that were surveyed want to be more thoughtful about where and how they travel.

And that's fantastic news, but I immediately saw a glaring hole, which I think is where I'd like to go with answering this question is why If organizations just asked why and we've talked to Aransas about that Y tree concept.

You can say, why do you want to travel? I want to go to the beach and relax. Why do you want to go to the beach and relax? Because I'm tired, I'm burnt out. Why are you tired and burnt out? Because I've been working 60 hours a week. Why have you been working 60 hours and you just continue and then eventually you land at these really true and pure motivations for why we engage anything, so I would recommend that anybody that's really interested in getting into this work that Simon Sinek says start with the why.

Aransas: I think you're right. And I think frankly, companies that are larger get scared of having that data because you can't ask for it and not use it.

That's worse than not asking, and I think a lot of these companies just don't know how to effectively use that [00:30:00] data. Unfortunately, even companies that have dedicated their entire product and experience to using a person's why struggle with it. I do believe though, in the work that we are doing, we've found some highly scalable and effective ways to accomplish that.

 That's part of what I'm most excited about, frankly, in the Transformation Economy, Collaborative work that we've done so far.

Jake: It makes me think of the guest speaker we had in Chicago at the first workshop that talked about relationships, like by just asking why, you're immediately deepening the relationship with the customer.

And in my mind, isn't that what it's all about anyway, right? Building a relationship with your customer and it's hard to do and if you don't know them or why are they, why they're there. So you can really serve them and guide them.

Aransas: Julie Fleischer. Such a smart insight. Yeah, I agree. We'll have to get her on the show soon. If you're listening to this, go check her out on LinkedIn. She always has really valuable insights to share there. Julie Fleischer will link to her in the show notes as well. So [00:31:00] as we start to wrap up this conversation that as I could probably stay in for the next couple of weeks talking to you guys about, I want to know what you believe experience strategists in general should take from the work that we're doing on transformation whether through the lens of transformational travel or transformation in general. And I'm gonna start with you, Dave, to set us up and then Jake, and Jorge I'd love to hear a couple thoughts from you as well.

Dave: Yeah, I'm glad you said it the way you did. We have been talking about travel for this particular episode, and there's certainly some tremendous things that are happening in travel, but transformation is something that almost every category needs to be paying attention to, and there are different types of transformations.

What you experience from travel may not be what you experience from a retail situation [00:32:00] or from the clothes that you buy or from your healthcare, or even from your financial institution. But what we think is going to happen is that more and more customers are going to expect that in certain situations, you are going to be able to help them progress through a change that they're interested in making and that's transformation, and you need to be ready for it. So I think it's an important topic that we need to keep building on and more and more experience strategists need to be paying attention to.

Aransas: I agree. What do you think, Jorge, what should people take away from this episode?

Jorge: So for me, like Jake talked about the why, which is super interesting and important, but also you would need to think where you want to be. One of my biggest learning from being a mountain biker, mountain biking is that you learn that [00:33:00] if you focus on the tree, you will hit the tree.

If , you just focus on the tree, you'll hit the tree. So you need to take your eyes toward the trail that you want to take. And as soon as your eyes go in that direction, everything goes in that direction. Your whole body, the bike, everything goes in that direction. And I think that life is like that.

Is it more difficult because you cannot see the trail, but when you start seeing where you want to be, what's the trail that you wanna go? Everything in your life will start switching in that direction. So starting with a question that you began this interview with, what are your goals for 2023, or how do you wanna see yourself?

And so transformation is related to that, to where you are now and you transform towards what you want, where you want to be. That's also one of the questions and somehow now, because of our busy lives, we're so immersed in how busy we are that we don't take the time to focus on that.

And again, travel is a great [00:34:00] tool for that. And every company if you're a retailer, when you are selling a product, you should ask your client, why are you buying that? Where do you want to be with that? And with travel, the beautiful thing again is that you get that moment to be with yourself outside of your regular self.

And so makes it a bit easier sometimes to see that where, so the why, but also the where you want to be.

Aransas: Well said. Jake?

Jake: Yeah, I, I would say that we talked a little bit about intention and I think that a missing link for most is often reflection and meaning-making. And I think to really weave that in when we're guiding transformations, you have to move, shift their mindsets away from, at least in the travel context, from doing to being and at The Transformational Travel Council, we have this prompt for travelers, to get out of that checklist mindset, and just go or, and bucket list mindset and it's just travel with heart.

An acronym for, be humble, be engaged, be awake, be resilient, and then of [00:35:00] course, be thankful. And if we start to really embody that, the opportunities to transform start to emerge, right? Because we are stretching, we are learning, we are growing. And eventually, after that reflection and meaning-making process, you gotta take action.

That's when the transformation sets in.

Aransas: Thank you, well said. All of you. And because we human beings at a fundamental level are wired for change and have. Sought transformation as long as our species has existed. It's just that it used to be we turned to our communities, those closest to us to help guide us on transformation.

Now we are in a place as a society for all the reasons that Jorge shared our dispersion technology, reliance, et cetera, that now we need to hire guides to transform us, and we expect those transformations to be effective and impactful. And so truly to those of you listening, [00:36:00] whatever category you are in, whatever goals you have for your company and your customer, you have a place to play in the transformation economy.

And so I'll ask you the same question that I just asked Dave, Jorge, and Jake, what do you believe you need to do in order to effectively and deeply impact your customer success? To help them really get in touch with what matters to them and to help them create a sense of personal transformation and impact with your experience.

 I hope you'll share those answers with us. This is the start of what we hope is a continued conversation, not just between the four of us, but with all of you. So please check us out on YouTube with the Experience Strategy podcast YouTube channel of course. And find the Experience Strategy Trend Report to keep [00:37:00] learning more.

All of that you can link to via stonemantel.co or experience strategy podcast.com. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing your goals. And Jake, Jorge, thank you for doing the big, important work that you're doing. Please keep spreading the word, and keep championing change. Keep championing true impact and creating spaces for people to get out of the rut of what is and explore what could be.

Thanks all for listening.

Jake: Thanks, Aransas. Thanks, Dave.

Jorge: Thank you.

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