Experience Strategy Podcast: How Empathy Can Save Your Business with Dr. Natalie Petouhoff

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Dr. Natalie Petouhoff is the author of the award-winning WSJ best-selling book Empathy in Action. She guides brands to see empathy as a business construct that helps them reduce costs and increase value because they are delivering great customer and employee experiences. 

In this episode of The Experience Strategy Podcast, we explore the transformative power of empathy and its crucial role in shaping exceptional experiences for employees and customers. 

Check out Dr. Petouhoff’s book here. To dive deeper into the world of creating memorable experiences that drive customer loyalty and growth, follow Joe Pine and read his groundbreaking book, The Experience Economy. 

Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to the experience strategy podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts experience nerds, Dave Norton and Aransas Savas. 

Aransas: Welcome to the experience strategy podcast. I'm Aransas Savas

Dave: And I'm Dave Norton.

And today we are joined by Natalie Petouhoff. She's the author of the award winning and Wall Street Journal best selling book, Empathy and Action, where she guides readers to see empathy as a business construct that actually helps them reduce cost and increase quality because they're delivering great customer and employee experiences.

We're so excited to talk to Natalie about what it means to bring empathy into our leadership and how we think about running companies and what it really means. To be successful. If you [00:01:00] haven't listened to our last episode of the experience strategy podcast on the power of bringing resilience into our leadership models, listen to that hand in hand with this one.

What you'll find between these two is a powerful toolkit for running a successful business in a modern. An employee focused way, Natalie, thank you so much for joining us. 

Natalie: My pleasure. 

Aransas: Thank you. So empathy, I think, you know, if we go all the way back, let's say to the seventies and eighties and how we once thought about leadership, we, it is completely contradictory to popularized models of success.

What got you interested in empathy? 

Natalie: I think. In the very beginning, I looked at, I was really, so I graduated from the University of Michigan with degrees in engineering, and I was so excited about my first couple of jobs, and when I started to do my work, I was really fascinated by this guy, [00:02:00] Edward Deming, who had this theory about, it was called quality back then, it wasn't called employee and customer experience, and it was really about Listening to the people who do the work and the people who buy your products and taking that feedback and integrating it back into the business.

And I thought, well, that sounds like common sense. That's like so cool. And then my experience of working right and interfacing with bosses and colleagues and, uh, doing customers focus groups and all that kind of stuff. I thought, wow, we really don't do that. That's kind of crazy. 

Dave: You know, that's amazing.

You know, I haven't thought about Edward Deming in a while, but he really, truly did change the way that companies make cars, right? And so important to the Japanese economy and his idea of quality was kind of the starting place for everything. I haven't made the connection between Deming's idea of quality and [00:03:00] empathy from a customer experience standpoint, but you're drawing a direct correlation between the two.

Natalie: I think there is a direct correlation. So if you look at the whole kind of zeitgeist that we're in right now, so you look at the Great Resignation, you look at Quiet Quitting, You look at major news stories where executives are saying, you know, return to work, right? And then people are resisting that. And I, I think kind of what happened was this idea that, and, and the, I think the reason things are more intense than they've ever been with customers and with employees is that during the pandemic, it gave us a cause for pause.

And in those quiet moments. We really had time to reflect on what's important to us, our families, the work that we do. And I think that we really, you know, there's a heightened awareness that we really don't want to put up with the status quo. So whether you're an employee and you're looking at your work life balance or lack thereof, the [00:04:00] quality of the relationships you build there, the quality of the work that you can do, and feeling connected and a sense of belonging.

I think that that hasn't been there for many companies, for many employees for a long time. And we know that because we have these global phenomena happening, right? And the media's labeled it as the great resignation or the quiet quitting. And I think for me, when I reflect back over the body of work that I put together over years, it's really about being connected to the two most important assets in your business.

Employees and customers and somehow this top down. I'm going to tell you I'm in charge. Overall philosophy about how we treat people has become and remains the mainstay and we really need to do a paradigm shift. 

Dave: Absolutely. I think that makes complete sense that we are, we're still struggling with this idea of empathy.

And you bring up the great pause that happened during COVID. I think another thing [00:05:00] that happened during that time period is that we redefined people who were on the front line. No pun intended as being essential workers, which basically meant that they had to risk their lives, maybe to work for very low pay, which is very, very that's when you step back and you say, wait a second, I'm only making like.

13 bucks an hour and these people are making me show up for work Whereas everybody else is going to stay home because they want to be safe. That is a big Disconnect for a lot of people on the front line.

Natalie: I think it's really fascinating that These are things that were only coming to light in the book.

What I did was I went all the way back to the first Industrial Revolution, where we really had the first construct of corporations and leadership and management theories. And there we were really doing that top down command and control kind of leadership. And [00:06:00] so you look at what's been going on for the last Depending on when you start the Industrial Revolution, if it's Europe or if it's the United States, we really have been in a paradigm that's been the same for A hundred years almost or more.

And so you have to start to think about if you're going forward in the next century or in the next 10 years. And I also talk about exponential technologies, especially with AI coming into the workforce and into the customer experience. You start to really look at the changes that need to happen. Not just with technology, but with the strategy and how we treat people and the culture.

The technology is going to accelerate the need for those changes. Yet what I see is we're still operating in these old paradigms and these old mindsets. So It's kind of like, uh, the perfect storm, if you will, is [00:07:00] that technology has always been urging us to do things differently. So whether you're incorporating AI into the workforce and let's say you're a salesperson and it's going to give you, you know, here's your deal strategy or your next best action or coach you on how to, how to sell better.

Or if you're a customer and you're trying to interface with a company and the bot does or doesn't answer the question. Um. You have to really start to look at the expectations that customers and employees have, and then ask yourself, so we're implementing all this cool technology stuff, right? But did we change the culture and how we treat people?

Aransas: Yeah. I love that. I know you're a big fan of Joe Pines, who co wrote The Experienced Economy as one of our colleagues and collaborators over at Stone Mantle. And he talks about, very central to his work, is the idea of the progression of economic value. And I think you started in a highly commoditized industry [00:08:00] that was commoditizing, for all intents and purposes, employees.

And treating employees as you use the word assets, they were treating them as commodities strictly. But I think what you're saying now is that the asset model has progressed to an experience model. And I think. We would even say to a transformation model at this point that employees no longer look just to have an employee experience, but what they really value and an employee employer relationship is one that makes them better.

In some way smarter, more influential, a better work life balance. But it really is creating some sort of to from transformation that makes the time spent with their employer, one that is more than time well spent, but it is actively time well invested that the time I'm giving you is giving me a greater reward than I've given you with my time and my skills.

Natalie: Yeah, it's, it's fascinating because if you look at, so you have two assets, you have employees. Without which work and products and services don't [00:09:00] happen. You have customers without which nobody would buy the stuff that you're producing, and yet neither asset is on the balance sheet. Um, and if you start to tie the financial results back to the people in the financial accounting system, we don't make that connection.

And so part of what I've been working on, especially with the work that I just recently did with DoorDash and now with Hilton, is to look at what is that connect. between how the experiences for the employees and the customers and then determine what is that economic balance. So I'm working on a couple of financial models because I think this is the next frontier is that we can talk about.

And it sends me back all the way back to the days when I was a young engineer and I would hold meetings and we would, you know, like training or that kind of stuff. And my room would be full and I could watch my boss walk by and they go, how do you get everybody to show up? [00:10:00] And I'm like, Oh, interesting.

And then I would walk by colleagues who, like, nobody showed up for the meetings. So I went and I asked and they said, well, Nat, we love coming to the meetings. You always bake your chocolate cake and you make us feel special. You make us feel like it really matters. You make us feel like we matter. And I was like, this is so simple.

What happens when we walk through those doors as human beings, as leaders and managers, that we forget to be human.

Dave: Tell us a little bit more about this financial model that you're, you're building.

Natalie: So part of what I did in the book, I, I, there's a little bit of a hint towards the models. So if you look at Gallup's studies, they're talking about 77 percent of the employees are quiet quitting.

So take for instance, a simple calculation would be if you're paying a dollar. For salary. You're really getting 23 cents on the dollar. Is that a good business model? No, it's really kind of stupid. So if you were a leader and someone said to you, if you can [00:11:00] improve the relationship with your employees, and that would move that needle, would you do it?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, right, because I think Dave, because we haven't actually said these things in black and white. Here's the dollars and cents. People don't think about, okay, when I get up in the morning, how am I going to be a better leader and take the leadership development classes seriously?

Right, and what is that employee experience that we're creating? And again, you know, sticking AI into the conversation, AI is going to change how work gets done. So if the experience is not good, and you stick technology in it, then we're just going to do the old bad things faster. Which again, makes no sense at all.

So for me, just looking at some of the common sense things, and I think Gallup's study said, you know, employee disengagement is for a midsize company is between 285 million and 335 million. Don't quote me [00:12:00] on those numbers, but it's a chunk of change, right? And so, If you look at the fact that you can't just tell someone to get productive or to care or to be motivated or innovative or productive, right?

There's a key piece that management seems to be missing. And I think the same thing. I'm going to show you how to create a product or service that actually delivers and then when someone goes to get help, do you have their back? Because if you have their back and you deliver a good service, they're going to buy from you.

Again, and again, and again, and that's where customer lifetime value comes from. But if the service is frustrating, a lot of friction, you say in your mind, I'm never buying from these people again, I'm going to tell all my friends and family, right? And so those statements can behind those statements, we can put mathematical models to show that this is not a good idea to continue.

with employee and customer experience the way that it's been. 

Dave: Yeah, that [00:13:00] makes complete sense. Natalie, you've been studying empathy, and I have this theory that the term has evolved over time. I'm wondering if you've noticed a change in the way that companies talk about what empathy is for the employee or for the customer over the last, you know, go back as far as you want to go.

But to me, the term has changed. What have you noticed that's different in the way that we talk about the word now as opposed to historically? 

Natalie: So if you look back at Daniel Goldman's work, right, emotional intelligence, I think that a lot of this came to the forefront in management theory with his book and with his body of work.

And I think, unfortunately, there's a lot of whitewashing of empathy, right? So it became kind of this like new buzzword, like putting it in your marketing materials or on your [00:14:00] website somehow. Made it that you actually made that a lived experience and I right and I don't know that companies Always embody that right if they did I don't think we'd have quite quitting right?

I mean, that's the proof point. So I think There are different definitions of empathy, and I think there's, Daniel Goldman has three in his book. The way that I'm defining it as actually sitting in the seat of another person. So it doesn't matter if it's your spouse, doesn't matter if it's your partner, doesn't matter if it's a customer or an employee, and actually seeing the world to their point of view.

And then the next step, the action part is taking that information and asking, say, tell me more about that. Help me understand the world from your point of view and then taking, slowing down to go fast so that you're actually taking the information in, you're digesting it, and if you actually do that, that transforms the decisions and choices.

that you make, and then the [00:15:00] way that you respond, right? So the way that we show up in leadership meetings, the way that we design workflows, this is really important to CHROs. This is important to leaders and to managers. The way that we are going to integrate processes, the way that we're going to integrate AI and technology into the, to what, how people work.

And it, it really does make a difference. in both the employee and customer experience. So, that's my definition. That's, you know, Daniel in the, in the book. And that's, and some of that, my definition, goes back to the days of Deming, of really listening to the feedback of the customer and the employee. And to me, it seems like common sense.

It seems really simple. There's a bit of arrogance, or maybe a lot, um, that people think that they don't, they already know, right? So, the idea of active listening. The idea of, of actually caring about what somebody else thinks and then [00:16:00] using that to create a better cohesive interaction between two people.

This is not rocket science, people. I am a rocket scientist, former rocket scientist, but I don't think this idea is that revolutionary or that difficult. So the question I have for you guys is why hasn't it caught on? Why don't people get this and what can we do? To, to really awaken it in them.

Dave: I think part of the reason I asked the question is because, uh, I remember a time when experienced designers whenever they described, uh, empathy, it was three words.

What is a customer? Think, what does the customer do, and what was the third one? Think, do, and feel. Yeah, that's it. So as long as you answered those three questions, then you solved for the problem. So they would put this into their customer journey maps, and they would put these [00:17:00] answers based on what they were seeing, and that was empathy.

You know, as long as you covered that, you were, you were doing it. And I think they did that for employees as well. Uh, so instead of. like truly actively listening or becoming leaders in and trying to understand, they just kind of journey mapped in this do think feel, um, model and, and thought that that was going to change things.

And I've always been suspicious of that. I personally believe that empathy is, it's two things at the same time. In one way, it is The, what the, the leader or the, um, company needs to, um, feel and experience for someone else. And on the other side, it is what the employee or the customer needs to be able to experience on their side.

[00:18:00] But more often than not, and you tell me, Natalie, you wrote the book, so I could be wrong on this. The customer doesn't need you. To necessarily always be, Oh, I'm so empathetic with you. What they need is for you to give them peace of mind. What they need from you is that they need you to give them hope.

They need you to give them a sense of purpose. They need you to, so these are like different emotional jobs. that they need you to help them get done in order to accomplish their goal. So we sometimes measure, I think, empathy, but we don't even think about these other emotional jobs that may be some active listening, some really delivering on what the, what we say the, the employer or the company, uh, or the customer needs.

And so I think that that's one of the big disconnects. What are your thoughts there?

Natalie: Really big disconnect. So what was fascinating. So many learnings, right? You write a book and [00:19:00] then you go and practice it, right? And that's really where you learn the most. So when I was working with DoorDash, basically, we looked at the employee and the customer experience and there was, and so we wanted to create this distinction so that people got that there is a difference between sympathy and empathy.

So people, Sympathy is, I'm sorry that's happening to you. I know how, how frustrating that must be. I would be frustrated too. Those kind of sentences. What we found when we talked to the employees, the agents, they didn't want to say all that stuff, right? Because they just wanted to help the customer. When we talked to customers, they said, yeah, you know, when I call you and I tell you that you forgot my fries.

And I have five kids and five hamburgers, but no fries and, and the, the Coke is all watered down because it took so long. When you forgot the fries, what I'm telling you in that moment is my house is on fire. And, and what I [00:20:00] don't want to hear is, Oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you that you must be really disappointed.

I would be disappointed too. What someone wants to hear is I'll get the hose. So the place that we started with DoorDash was to really look at the chat scripts and the interactions between the customer and the employee. And the old notion of the way that we've been scripting people to speak to each other really doesn't make any sense.

And it really leans more into sympathy versus empathy. And so what's been fascinating to me is that people don't get that empathy really means that you're cognating, right? Sympathy is a response. Empathy is cognating, at least to me, cognating the other person and the way they feel and the things that they need.

And then I'm changing my behavior. So I agree with you when journey mapping first started happening, we would go, what are they feeling? Right. But what we didn't ask was what [00:21:00] are we as a company need to do to do about it? Yeah. Right. So, so that we can create a better experience. So because it, it's only half of the problem.

And so what's been really fascinating was when we started to really look at how do we interact with customers, we cut the average handle time in half. Wow. The other, and, and we didn't use any fancy AI technology or any of that stuff. All we did was sit in the seat of the customer, understand their house was on fire, and then how do we solve that problem?

And sometimes there were some emotional indicators so that we, we needed to respond to something up front, but it was really about when you call customer service, you just want help. You do not want to hear a bunch of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 

Aransas: It reminds me of an episode we did a while back on this podcast with an experienced strategist whose [00:22:00] rental car was stolen on a business trip.

And he called the rental agency and he was like, my car was stolen. They're like, do you have the, do you like, where can we pick it up? And he's like, I don't know, the car was stolen. 

Natalie: Oh, did you just hear my car was still in?

Aransas: I don't have it. And I kid you not, it took like 15 calls with 15 different agents before anyone could process the reality of a situation and have a response that was aligned with this particular situation.

They were using the scripts for all of the more common situations, but they were meaningless to him. Because he was just trying to figure out like, what do I do without this rental car? And it wasn't until a day and a half later. That somebody offered him another car, right, which is what he needed at that point.

And I, I think what you've hit on here, this delta between sympathy and empathy is so powerful and it's so well aligned. So Dave and I, one of the things we do is we lead a program called The Collaboratives where we [00:23:00] bring a bunch of experienced strategists together across. a bunch of different types of companies.

So it'll be a company from finance and a company from health care and a company from retail and the list goes on. But they're all interested in some, some similar central questions. So we run one that's called the Transformation Collaborative. And so we're working with companies who are interested in creating some sort of transformation in their customer or employees and who believe that that is their path to value.

And the key insight that we've taken this year from extensive, Quant and qual research across all of these different categories is exactly what you're saying. Now, obviously it goes much deeper given the depth of the research, but if I were to sum it up in a sentence, it would be exactly this. A customer wants to know that the company is genuinely interested, right?

So it is that sense of care and compassion and listening, as you said. But then it is responsiveness. It is adapting your solution, your offering, whether it's [00:24:00] becoming their primary caregiver in a healthcare setting or in a finance setting, uh, or in a sales setting as, as you describe, or even just in a customer support role, which is a quick interaction, whether it's a long term or a short term engagement, they want to know that.

That you care and that you have the ability to adapt whatever it is you offer to whatever it is they really care about. That's it. Yeah. And it sounds so simple, but to your point, that's hard. It was. It was. It changes everything about how we do business.

Natalie: It changed. It changes everything. And so what was fascinating was part, part of the consulting work that I did was like, just come in and talk about empathy.

And, and then, you know, you'll be on your way. And so part of what I found was fascinating is it is a really org Change management type of project because we're taking the way that we have and the contact center industry, for instance, [00:25:00] it's been around about 70 years. So the way that we have trained and the constructs that we have about how customers interact is about 70 years old.

So when we said to agents. Right? And we did a lot of focus groups and side by sides and the kind of research that you're talking about. The response we got back from the agents was, well, will that seem impolite? Right? Will that, will it seem like I'm just getting cut to the chase? So we did some role plays and we acted it out in front of everybody else.

And we had them, we created some chat scripts, um, that we acted out. And so it was a, they got it because we did it in a visceral setting. So it was like they were like we had and we, of course, exaggerated a lot. Right. So we had the agent that was doing the sympathy script go on and on and on. And like, after the third apology statement, right, everybody was like, okay, just just tell them that you're going to help them.

Right. And so then [00:26:00] they. Because initially, because there are a lot of the contact centers are not in the United States. So there was this, especially in the Latin American countries, there was this like, personal paradigm about how we respond. And was that a North American definition of empathy. And so once they got that, what empathy means, is that you're responsive to someone's needs from their point of view.

They're like, oh, of course, that's our culture. That's what we really want to do. That's what I, as an employee, regardless of country or nationality, that's what I want to do as the person answering the question. And so once we got over that hurdle of defining this and helping people see that it's more caring to give people what they want to need, Then people were like, okay, but it took a minute.

It wasn't quite as simple as, um, just [00:27:00] explaining it to people. 

Aransas: Yeah, I think what you're hitting on there too is the answer to your question earlier about why can't we do this? Uh, it seems so simple. As a leader, listen to your people, show them that you've genuinely heard them. I, I talk a lot about scripts differently maybe than, than you do or in a different context than you do. And I think of them in terms of mental models, right? That I think listening looks and sounds one way and what it really looks like or sounds like to other people could be vastly different. And so I think what you're hitting on with this, this idea of Call center scripts is a really interesting solution to so much of the disconnect to and how we lead and so perhaps it is exposing ourselves to different ways that people think and talk so that we can then appreciate in Action what this looks and sounds and feels like which is why I love your book so much because [00:28:00] it's it's more than just the idea of empathy Super duper, but not super useful.

It is the, it is empathy in action, because this is an active practice. 

Natalie: I love that. And I think it goes back to show versus tell. So I think the way that managers lead is they tell. Right. They're broadcasting versus a true. Let me show you that I care by my behaviors, by the tone of my voice, by the way that I listen to you and the way that when I respond to you, you feel seen and heard and acknowledged.

And I, I really think that there's a sense of like the overall arching topic for, I think for most people is they feel invisible. So whether you're in a meeting and let's say you make a suggestion. And. The boss just shoots it down in front of everybody, or they pretend like it's their idea. These are all forms of not invented here.[00:29:00] 

And maybe their shadow self is coming out. There's a whole other train that we can go down about why people behave the way that they behave, which is also very fascinating and, and part of how we would solve this. And when you start to really look at, so if I can really show you that I care. Right? So in the customer service example, showing you that I care is putting the fire out in your house.

Showing you that I care is not a bunch of an apology statements. And when you think about what a customer wants, if they're calling about the fries, do they want an apology or do they want their fries or a refund? And maybe it's both, right?

Aransas: I'm sorry, let's get this fixed. Yeah. Right. 

Dave: Yes. Yeah. Right. I still think that there's an additional challenge that companies are facing today where it's hard to get employees to Do the frontline jobs.

It's very difficult to [00:30:00] recruit, especially post COVID. And so if you're trying to recruit and then train and hold to a standard and people are cycling through and they don't, they don't want to stay. It makes for a really tough dynamic. I think it's harder to execute today than it was before COVID. Just because of the way things have shifted.

What are your thoughts on that Natalie? 

Natalie: Well, I think the house is on fire, literally, I think the workplace is on fire, I think it is more difficult. And it is even more the reason why we need leaders to pay attention. Because now we have the listening, right? So automatically, people are on edge, people have reached their limit of what they're going to put up with.

And so So if we keep doing things the same way that we've been doing them, and that is the definition of insanity, because if we do things the same and expect different results, that doesn't make any sense. So now we have a heightened [00:31:00] awareness of employees who have reached their limit in the way that they're treated, and then we treat them the same and we expect them.

to be joyful and motivated and productive. They're basically saying with their body language and the things that the way that they show up or don't show up or change jobs or their lack of loyalty is a huge indicator to say we're not going to put up with this anymore. Let's say that you're in the service industry.

I don't know. Maybe you have a nursing agency and the way that you treat your nurses is drastically different. Then the way 99 percent of all the other companies do and word of mouth gets out, go work for this agency because the way that they treat us, they, we are frontline workers and the way that they treat us is that we are essential, that we matter, that the work that we do changes lives.[00:32:00] 

Now, if you're a nurse. Where are you going to go work? You're going to go work at the company that makes you feel valuable. They may not pay you more, but the way that you're treated is such a better experience. You're going to bring your full self. You're going to think twice about calling in sick or calling in just because you don't feel like getting out of bed.

So to me, this is solvable. And I think Dave, you're absolutely right that we have a situation where there's a heightened awareness. And I'm not going to take this anymore. So does it make sense that we have leaders doing the same thing and expecting different results?

Aransas: Yeah, I mean, I think too, it's an interesting time.

So if you've been following along with the, the Chick fil A story or the Burger King trying to become a Chick fil A story, so Chick fil A, we all know the business case around this and the story of how they created. Uh, more engaged customer through [00:33:00] extending that interaction at point of sale. And so, of course, Burger King has been in the news lately for handing every customer, regardless of age, a crown and saying, you rule and extending the engagement time by two minutes.

And I think the controversy that emerged from that was Based on a lack of authenticity in that engagement, right? And so it was confusing for the customer, but it was also confusing for the employees who felt like they were being scripted to say and do something that they didn't understand or believe in.

And could that have been implemented in a way that had a completely different outcome? Absolutely. Right? Had there been authentic belief from the employees, had they been saying something they really understood the value of, I think they might have responded differently. Had they been given more flexibility and freedom to say something that allowed them to [00:34:00] deeply achieve the goal of the interaction without necessarily feeling sort of bullied into saying something they didn't believe in.

And there's so many different ways we could have looked at this through a lens of empathy It would have led to a different outcome, but I think they tried to use scripting to create an idea of empathy instead of, again, the action of empathy. 

Natalie: And I think the mistake in that campaign was that whoever led it wasn't sitting in the seat of the customer, wasn't sitting in the seat of the employee to understand how it would land.

So, if, if you're an employee and you have to say stuff that's scripted, right? What I'm prescribing is to not script the conversation, which is scary, right? Because how do you get consistency and how do you, how do you control it while you're asking people to be genuine human beings? Well, if the culture isn't that you really believe that the customer is important and that I'm important as an employee.

Is that going to come [00:35:00] across, whatever this King thing was, genuine and authentic? No, but if you create a culture where a sense of belonging and a sense of, you know, we really do care about the customer and we care about each other and the work that we do and, you know, we're feeding people, which is really an essential part of their day, and you created a whole culture around that, then the employees would feel that.

I'm important to the company, I'm important to my customers, and then it would be come out much more naturally. And then as a customer, right, how that lands, right? So part of, you know, when we were experimenting and doing pilot programs was we experimented with how to respond. We didn't just say, okay, well, here's the script, go do this.

We tested it and we saw what, how did the agents feel about what they were saying and ask them, how does this feel? And we asked customers, do you, you know, like took people who are high volume customers and said, when we interact with you [00:36:00] this way, how does that feel? And when we interact with you that way, how does that feel?

So again, going back to the basic, basic bare bone definition of empathy is, are you sitting in the seat of the customer and the employee? Understanding what they're experiencing. So, integrating that feedback back into how you do business and transforming all of that versus it sounds to me, and I wasn't there, so I don't know, but it sounds like a top down.

Here's how we're going to do things. Yeah. 

Aransas: It's a great idea to engage your customer, but there are many different ways to accomplish that goal. Sure. And I agree. I think it was, you know, I was at. when there was a shift toward being brand led over Might have been termed previously as experience led and brand led meant creating a consistent experience.

And I think there is a tension [00:37:00] there, right? Especially, uh, in organizations that are geographically dispersed and where there are lots of variables at play in terms of service and location. But how do you create authentic? consistency. And again, I think that's something Joe Pine has done some great work on.

But I think if we did have to, to come back to it as a single word, it would be authenticity and allowing people to have authentic connection, to show empathy in a way that felt true, as opposed to a way that felt forced. Because that is consistent! Empathy can be consistent, just doesn't have to be a consistent script, which I think is what you're, you're teaching as well, Natalie.

This is so exciting. We're so glad to be in orbit with you, Natalie, to share your great work with our audience, to, um, hopefully, uh, encourage them to go out and read your wonderful actionable ideas that you can [00:38:00] take back into your organization. As always, it is. Our mission to raise the tide of experience strategy around the world.

And we believe that we do that together because that is how we create customer trust is by infusing a better experience into organizations of all sizes and all categories. And certainly empathy is very much at the heart of that. So Natalie, thank you for this wonderful toolkit for all of us listeners.

Thank you for listening. Let us know what you wanna hear more about. Reach out to us on LinkedIn via the podcast account or just DM Dave Live. We'd love to hear from you.

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