Experience Strategy Podcast: People Helping People: Redefining Leadership in the Experience Era
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In this episode, we are joined by resilience expert, Simon T. Bailey, who launched his career at The Disney Institute. Listen to the episode to learn:
The importance of transitioning from ego-driven to eco-conscious leadership
Practical strategies for building trust and fostering innovation in today’s organizations
How to create environments where employees can thrive and customers feel valued.
Tune in now to enhance your leadership skills and transform your organization. For access to the transcripts to the episode, click here.
Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to the experience strategy podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts, experience nerds, Dave Norton and Aransas Savas.
Aransas: Welcome to the experience strategy podcast. I'm Aransas Savas and I'm here with Dave Norton, your host today.
Welcome back Dave. If you've been following along in this grand adventure, Dave, you know, selfishly went off and got married and went on a honeymoon and so he hasn't been with us for the last two episodes, but we left you in good hands with Mary Putman, the chief consultancy officer of Stone Mantle and It's such a joy to host those two episodes with her.
So if you haven't listened in on those episodes, please go back, catch those, some really great content in there. Today we're joined by Simon T. Bailey. Now this is a name you might have heard if you've [00:01:00] been following the Resilience Field. And Simon started out, uh, with Disney. And left Disney, launched off from there and has worked with so many of the world's largest and most influential brands.
His focus throughout that work has really been on helping people, employees specifically, create greater impact, create a stronger sense of purpose by cultivating resilience. And so in this conversation, we're going to talk to him about how you as employee experience Creators and providers can cultivate safe spaces for resilience, can cultivate spaces where your employees can bring their whole selves to work and be their best for you, for your customer, and for your company.
And most of all. for themselves. Simon, thank you so much for joining us today.
Simon: Thank you for having me. So good to be with you.
Aransas: So [00:02:00] tell us how you got from where you began to where you are now.
Simon: So I was sitting at my desk at Disney a number of years ago, whenever you work at Disney, you never talk to the media.
And a journalist called me and he says, where do you see yourself 10 to 15 years from now? And I said, I see myself as the president and CEO of the Walt Disney World Resort and eventually the chairman and CEO of the Walt Disney Company. And he puts this in print. So the article comes out and my boss is like, dude, what were you thinking when you did this interview?
And I said, Larry. I work at this company whose motto is if your heart is in your dreams, no requests too extreme for when you wish upon a star makes no difference who you are, but obviously it does here. So, so with that said, HR showed up. It was not a very pixie dusted conversation. About a year later, I realized this is the beginning of the end. It's probably in my best interest to find my happiness elsewhere. So, [00:03:00] I, uh, that's how I started out this work 21 years ago.
Dave: Wow. That's a great story.
Aransas: That is a great story. And one that no doubt taught you a lot about resilience.
Simon: It was. It was a character building moment.
The one thing I really learned from my journey at Disney, and I love Disney and have worked there, is that a job is what you're paid to do, but finding your brilliance and being resilience is what you're made to do. So it's understanding when you have committed career suicide, how do you bounce back and still add value.
Aransas: And how did you end up focusing on resilience in your work?
Simon: So one of the things I've noticed in my 35 year professional journey, I've worked for six different companies, Disney being one of them. But since that time, I've worked with 2, 500 organizations in 54 countries. And what I've discovered is that [00:04:00] people years ago would show up at a company, and the company would say, Uh, bring us your head, but coat check your heart at the door, and do your job.
And now we're in a world Where companies realize the lines have blurred. You need head, hearts, and hands to be fully engaged every day. And it only happens when people are in an environment where they are celebrated rather than tolerated. So I kind of got into the work that way.
Aransas: How beautiful. And I love this idea of head, heart and hands.
And it's true. We need the whole human, uh, to add another H to this. So through your work with so many brands, I know you've learned a lot. About what works and what doesn't. Um, and I think we live in a time where there's, there's a lot of greenwashing and a lot of, uh, layering on a virtue without [00:05:00] actually practicing it.
And it's led to increasingly low levels of trust between employees and employers. Uh, and so what I'm most interested in hearing from you is how these companies authentically cultivate spaces of trust with their employees.
Simon: Yeah. So a few things to consider. Companies that do it really right, when they invite people into an organization and they onboard them, they ask them, what's your gift, your talent, your skill?
Where do you see yourself going? And they'll also ask this question, what do you want for you? And the reason that question is very important is because at some point, if this person is a game changer, if they add value, they're going to get a call from company B down the street. That's going to throw a few more dollars at them.
And that person is going to decide. Is this the place that sees me, values me and understands my contribution [00:06:00] and is investing in my future in the organization? And then we're going to decide in that moment. So it's understanding that every person that comes to work in a business, they have what I would call a brilliance portfolio.
Where every single day, every week, every month, they're evaluating. Did I add value this week? Did the company allow me to grow? And if I made a mistake, what did we learn from that? And how do we continue to move forward? I was just with a company yesterday, and this particular leader shared that every quarter, they give out a failure award.
And the award is called Almost Amazing. And the reason I love that because it was almost amazing, it didn't quite make it, But what did we learn from that? The second thing that I've discovered is that companies that get it right, they have what I would call a career investment discussion. Every 90 days, they're assessing how are things going.
They're [00:07:00] not waiting to the mid year review or the end of the year review. It's too late because if a person has already got a foot out the door, it's because they're married to the job but looking. Some other employer has been whispering in their ear to say, Hey, come over here. And they're like, you know what? I think I will. Because at some point no one was checking in with that employee to keep them married to the company.
Aransas: Or worse, they are there and not looking, but just tolerating. And so even though they're not in the process of leaving physically, they have left spiritually, right? And I think we see that so often, uh, and, and that has become a more open conversation about disengagement over the last couple of years.
Yep. Yes. And. If our employees are disengaged, it's not a bad, they're not a bad person. It just means they're not receiving what they need from this particular job.
Simon: Absolutely. Yeah.
Dave: I kind of hear what you're saying, Aransas and [00:08:00] I hear what you're saying, Simon. And I'm wondering, like, do, um, is it because they're not getting what they want from that particular job, like you said, Aransas, or is it that their heart's not being taken care of, like you said, Simon? Or is it.. it it both or, and how do you navigate those waters?
Aransas: To me, those are the same thing in most cases, right? So, in that their, their needs are not being met and that means, and I think I'm, I'm highlighting this because. Simon pointed out something that is perfectly well validated in our own data, Dave, and that when we have asked employees, what, what drives your sense of satisfaction with your employer?
Well, number one, no surprise is I get paid. That, that's meeting a basic human need. Great. If I'm not getting paid, I'm, I'm probably not going to stick around. It would take a massive growth of purpose [00:09:00] and engagement to overcome not being paid for your job. That said, right below that is a sense of purpose, which is impact, which is exactly what Simon is saying.
And so what I'm talking about when I say their needs aren't being met. Is their employees aren't, their employers aren't making them feel on purpose. They aren't feeling valued and valuable. I think that that is the same thing Simon was saying. Is that right?
Simon: Absolutely. In fact, both of you may be surprised to know we did some research and just trying to understand what's going on with working America.
And one of the data points that really jumped out is that 55 percent of individuals would go and work for another manager in another company if they felt that their brilliance was being blocked at the current company that they were in. So there is not a place to your point to be purposeful, to add meaningful value to the organization.
Aransas: 50 plus percent, that's, that's crazy. [00:10:00] And it's not, Oh, I'm going to make. I'm not, it's not, and, and we've seen this even, you know, so it's one thing to talk about this when you're talking about people who are making hundreds of thousands of dollars and having that luxury of, oh, it's a 10, 000 difference. We see the same trends amongst people who are looking at, I'm going to make a dollar more per hour.
Right. Purpose still matters. Feeling valued and valuable matters. Bye bye.
Simon: And the other thing we discovered is, so what is that managers can do to ensure that employees are experiencing a resilient environment? Number one, clear communication, because if it's foggy in the head, it's cloudy out here. So how do you be really clear?
The second thing our research came back and said, flexibility, flexible in how they go about doing their work. So it's not so much hours in, it's about output. So if a person gets it done at 2 a. m. in the morning, [00:11:00] don't hold their feet to the fire because you said it's got to be done. Allow them to have that flexibility to get it done based on what works for them.
And then the other interesting point is recognition. What we've realized according to research, one minute spent on recognition creates 100 minutes of initiative. So when a person's appreciation language is understood, they go above and beyond the call of duty. And you don't even have to ask them to do it.
It's because they've been seen, valued, and understood, and appreciated.
Aransas: So good. So good. And, and I will double click on what you said about flexibility, um, in our meaningful motivation work that Dave and I have led. So much of it is really about understanding the individual human beings desires, right? So what, what really matters to them?
And so I, I think this is baked into what you're saying, but I want to make sure we're [00:12:00] really explicit. Okay. At least when we talk about the value of flexibility, we're talking about flexibility that matters to the individual. So whether that is what time I arrive at work, what time I leave work, what my ways of working are in general based on my learning differences or my communication differences.
And to me, What that boils down to at the end of the day is you trust me? Yes, and so flexibility as much as anything is a matter of confidence and belief.
Simon: Yes, one of my failures when I first got promoted at Disney is I didn't build trust. I was a boss with an agenda instead of a leader with a vision and how it was proven that I was so focused on a vertical ascension instead of horizontal connection is when organizational development took me through the tried and true process of start, stop and continue.
And the feedback was you manage up [00:13:00] really well, you kiss up really well. But your people don't feel connected to you because it's all about you. I ran an adult daycare center. You were not smart. You had to come to me to get all of the answers. And after a while, people get sick and tired of working for a jerk of a leader.
And what I recognize when OD did the intervention, I had to look myself in the mirror and said, how am I showing up in quote, unquote, the happiest place on earth? And when the alarm clock goes off on Monday morning, do people want to come and work with me? Or do they see themselves coming to work for me?
Aransas: That's so good. And it's interesting what you're doing here, I think is a model for us as well in terms of what works and what doesn't, because what you're describing is transparency, right? And that vulnerability that comes with saying, I wasn't always good at this, this, [00:14:00] this was a blind spot for me too.
And this is how I overcame it. And I think that is something that the best leaders do.
Simon: Yeah.
Dave: It makes me think about some of the work that we've been doing when, when you talk about flexibility and what the employee wants, it makes me think about some of the work that we're doing around, um, personal systems.
So we, we have been studying the way that people make decisions, experience, uh, work experience, home life and so forth. And, uh, we've talked a number of times on this podcast about this, this idea that they create systems for themselves, that they have processes, protocols that they put in place, they have technology that they put in place.
They have relationships that they put in place, and they're all driven by a purpose, uh, a foundational belief that they want to [00:15:00] support, but at the end of the day, they need that system to work, and if that system isn't working for them, then things begin to fall apart in their lives. When I think about flexibility, it's not just time of day, you know, or even location today.
Those are certainly important elements for a lot of people is whether I can work from home, whether I can work at work, uh, where, where I can, where I can do my work. But there's also, does it fit with my ability to get into a, um, place where I can brainstorm or get into a place where I can think strategically.
And can I, can I do those types of activities in some kind of systematic way that I can count on? That to me is like a different level of flexibility than just, hey, yeah, we give you, um. We don't care how you get your work done. We just want you to get your work done. Uh, I wonder, Simon, if you [00:16:00] have any thoughts on that.
Simon: I do. When I think about the personal system that you've articulated, one of the things we realized in our research, and we ask questions around workplace trauma, And emotional trauma, so as a human system, you can show up every single day and be told, do more with less than we're going to give you everything you need.
But the broader point, and I think the bigger point is, how are you doing? While working in the system point in case I was just yesterday with a leadership team of a fortune 10 company. And what's interesting what I heard from these amazing executives is that they are inspired. But they're exhausted.
They're inspired, but they're tired. And how do they now bring the rest of the systems that report up to them along for this VUCA world that [00:17:00] all of us are familiar with, right? How do they still show up in the system and model how do we thrive? And you know what? They didn't have an answer. It wasn't three steps, five steps, do this, do that.
So, literally, I had to stop the presentation. I had about 35 slides and I was maybe just 5 slides in. I had to put blank on the screen and we had to talk about how they were doing and feeling in the system. So, I think 1 of the things that leaders may want to consider is in your next meeting, take a moment.
And just say, how are you doing? And you start as a leader and say, here's where I am, because everyone knows the emperor doesn't have any clothes. And, and I think it's in that transparency that it opens people up to say, okay, but we're going to be okay while we work in the system. How do we find a way forward?
Dave: Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think, um, one of the other things that, um, we've learned a lot about [00:18:00] is the role of reflection in systems and people in order to make their systems work, they have to be able to reflect, and I've heard some really interesting things that you've described here, you know, in terms of.
Celebrating moments, recognition, being able to pause and step back and talk to the individual and see how the individual is doing. And then I imagine that there's also some work where it's like, how could you be better in the way that you do execute the way that you do your work? As a part of that whole reflective exercise.
Simon: Yes.
Aransas: So going back to this idea that there's a lot of suspicion about companies and tensions. How do companies create long term trust by employing some of these tactics, the, the clear communication, the flexibility and the recognition, and to really make [00:19:00] those a habit and not just a nice initiative?
Simon: Well, the 1st thing we've got to deal with the reality is whenever we want to build more trust and there's change and uncertainty on the horizon.
Some are waiting for the other shoe to drop. What are the markets going to do? There's pressure from consumers. You have to recognize that there are early adopters. There are fence sitters, and there are naysayers. I believe organizations have got to focus their energy and their time on those who are the early adopters.
They are the champions. Those are the people that are demonstrating the behaviors that are moving the organization forward. They go above and beyond for the internal and external customers, the fence sitters. They can sway either way. They're easily influenced by what are the early adopters doing? What are the naysayers saying?
And they figure out what they're going to do. But then you have the naysayers who are more negative than an undeveloped piece of film. And for whatever reason, [00:20:00] they cannot get out of their way. No matter how much you coach them, pat them on the hand, you're doing a great job. They are still going to show up as a roadblock in the organization.
So what the organization has to begin to say, okay, how do we identify them? We know who they are, but we are going to focus our time and our energy on the early adopters and the fence sitters and build trust with them and then invite the naysayers to say, we're going to build trust. But if you are going to break trust by your actions and not being participatory, then the organization at some point may invite you to find your happiness elsewhere.
And I know that's a little harsh, right? Because we're talking about building trust, and sometimes trust is having a direct conversation to say, is this still the place for you? And if it's not, We've tried everything to help you get there, but this is not working for us and you move on.
Aransas: [00:21:00] So when companies come to you looking for help, what is usually the problem they're trying to solve?
Simon: This is so funny. I was just talking with a CEO last week and he wants to take his company from 3 billion to 10 billion in the next five years. And one of the things that I, I shared with him, I said, everything starts with leadership. Who are the leaders? Because that's where culture is created. So yeah, you have the culture of the organization, but leaders create subcultures.
So talking about your leaders, where are they? Then the second thing is how are your leaders showing up? Are they command and control or are they about coaching and inviting people on the journey? So here's how I define leaders. The purpose of a leader is to invite people on a journey. To discover the leader within themselves while they're walking with you.
So leadership is [00:22:00] caught and taught. I'm learning something from you, Dave. I'm learning something from you, Arnaz, and I'm picking up on what the real culture is. That's the first thing. And then the second thing is when you look at your team, do we have individuals that can carry us into the future? How do we infuse the will?
Upgrade the skills. What is it that they need, uh, to truly practice AI, actual intelligence? How do we help them get there? How do we close those gaps for them and have that conversation? But then let's look at our customer, our customer now and our customer of the future. What are the things that they are asking us for that?
We haven't thought about how do we become anticipatory as my good friend, Dan Burris talks about, how do we begin to anticipate what they need? And then how do we educate our teams and our leaders to become intrapreneurs? Who is the team inside the organization [00:23:00] that is off somewhere way in left field, right?
Working on the next, next, and how do they give updates quarterly or half of a, during the mid point of the years, here's what we've discovered about our customer, the future, and here's who we need to become. Those kind of conversations build trust. Unlock innovation, and you're practicing what I've seen great organizations do.
You're practicing Bouchard Day. It's the ability to go there and do that instead of just, you know, doing what's always been done. Right.
Aransas: That's fun. Bouchard Day as opposed to Deja vu. So Dave, for our audience, reorient us here. So you've identified key principles of experience strategy. I'd love your help starting to map.
Dave, some of those experience strategy techniques to what Simon is recommending here so that we can start to, um, [00:24:00] see how this all fits together. Yeah.
Dave: So I think, I think, um, everything you say makes a lot of sense, Simon, and I'm learning from you as well. And, you know, when we think about, uh, traditionally about experience strategy.
There is a whole body of work and thinking that says that you focus on the employee and the employee experience first, and then that translates into what the customer will get from the, from the experience. So you have to, you as an experienced strategist have to figure out. What is the, the employee experiencing?
How can we make that experience better for the employee? And then that will lead to not only greater happiness so that they then translate to the customer that that level of positivity. But it also means that they're likely, like you are [00:25:00] saying, Simon, to be more effective at innovating, at bringing to the company things that they couldn't otherwise bring to the table that's going to make other aspects of the experience better, including new ideas, new solutions, new capabilities, because we have to remember that, uh, the customer doesn't.
Just want a smiley face on the other end. They want innovation. They want improvement. They want their own personal experience to be better. And so we need, uh, we need all of our employees to be more successful. And I, I do think that we live in a time of a lot of transition. Where, you know, 1 day, it's okay to be a remote worker.
The next day, you're not going to get any kind of move up in the organization promotion in the organization. If you're a remote employee, I think there's a [00:26:00] lot that's going on today that. That hasn't happened in the past, and I think there's a lot of leaders out there and a lot of experienced leaders that are trying to figure out their organizations and how they support their employees in the right way so that they can bring everything that they need to to the table.
So that's how I see. Uh, the connection between the two. I love what you're describing here, Simon, in terms of it starts with the leader and what the leader is trying to do and the type of culture. And I wonder if you have done any work around how the experience that the leader has created for the organization affects the experience that the, that the customer has.
Simon: Yeah, one of the things that we've discovered in our work, when a leader has created an environment for [00:27:00] employees to be resilient and operate in their brilliance, number one, you have customers who literally Yelp about the brand, because what they really understand that a brand is not the name on the door.
It's not the website. A brand is an emotion, a connection, um, A perception, a moment and a memory and leaders who transfer or what I would call brand the moment for employees. Employees brand the moment for customers. So, in other words, I'll sum it up this way. Customer service is a department. But customer love is a mindset, and it's that mindset that employees recognize that they have been deputized to go the extra inch for the customer, not because they have to, but because they want to, that's an organization who has passed that baton on to the employee to say brand the moment.
I love that so much.
Dave: That's, [00:28:00] and you're, what I love is that you're, you're so articulate in the way that, uh, you describe these things. I'm, I'm going to take away this idea of they Yelp the brand. I think that that's, uh, that's a great way to describe it for sure. Yeah.
Aransas: Yeah, I think just in that, what we see is again, a model of consistency.
I suspect that's not the first time you've said that, um, that you've created an idea and communicated it consistently. And I think that's what we're really asking employers to do. Knowing that, to Dave's point, things will change, but the values and the principles should remain consistent.
Simon: And you know what?
People will trust you every single day when they see you modeling for them. This is everything everyone knows. When you're modeling the beliefs, the behaviors on a consistent basis of how things are to be done. They literally will catch it.
Aransas: And when you're honest about the things that aren't working, which is again, what you modeled in your personal story there of, yeah, I worked hard to get to this place and there are probably times when it becomes the Simon show now.
Right. Understandably, um, we as human beings have tendencies. And so to acknowledge those and to say, yeah. I have this tendency and it's something I work toward all the time and this is my process and this is me as a human being. And again, it is that consistency of honesty, even in an inconsistent world that cultivates trust.
Simon: Yeah. It's really shifting from ego leadership to what I would call eco leadership, ego edging goodness out. Eco encouraging, caring often. So I show up to focus on the whole human being as [00:30:00] an eco leader. And I've never said this before. I just literally had an epiphany. It's that eco leader where we're Dave and Arnis.
I see you as a human being, not a human doing. And I realize less of me. More of you and when I honor you in the moment, we together walk to the bridge of possibility because it's not about me.
Dave: It's about we, well, I like the idea as well, because it makes me think of ecosystem when I was just talking about the importance of systems.
So you got like the connection there. So that's really cool.
Aransas: I love that. The human within the system. That's right. As the human is the creator of the system.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Aransas: Absolutely. So what have you seen shifting over the last couple of years that you think gives us some indication of what's coming in terms of [00:31:00] employee experience and employee expectations?
Simon: I have seen amazing leaders, many that are listening to us right now rise to the occasion and realize, do I want to be a leader who focus on success or do I want to focus on significance? And many leaders have decided that being a significant leader is embracing the whole person, making sure that everyone matters.
So that gives me hope for the future. That's number one. The second thing that I've seen with leaders is they have decided, how do I be a significant leader? Instead of a successful leader. Yes, there's going to be the PNL and there's going to be KPIs and all of the terms we know. But how do I step back and say, if I was to leave this earth tomorrow, did I do right by my team?
And did I leave an imprint? Did I make an impact on their head, their heart and their hands that [00:32:00] allowed them to move to a new place of, uh, emotional congruency. And it's in that emotional congruency that Rabbi Harold Kushner talks about, where's the alignment of head, heart and hands. I'm seeing that in leaders.
I think the third thing that I'm seeing in leaders, and this is, this is going to be a little out on edge, but, but hear my heart. I believe leaders have come home to themselves. To come from a place of hopefulness instead of helplessness because a hopeful leader is a helpful leader and that distinction I believe is inviting individuals to step up and they'll go above and beyond for that leader.
Aransas: How beautiful. Yeah. Said another way. I think maybe it's the difference between a scarcity mindset leader and an abundance mindset leader. Yes. Believing there is possibility and, and as you say, hope, well, what a hopeful conversation, Simon. I hope [00:33:00] you're right. I hope our tolerance for, for human list leadership has dwindled so much that even those who are tempted to do things the old Push way understand that what they need is followers and in order to do that They need to become a leader truly in every sense of the word I think in this we've really touched on a lot of ways to self identify Whether or not you were in an organization that is led by a true leader or whether or not you are a leader Who is taking that eco or that eco approach.
Uh, so thank you, Simon, for sharing your experience with us, for sharing your journey with us so honestly, and for helping all the experienced strategists, both those who are responsible for employee experience, or simply who are having an employee experience, consider what's [00:34:00] possible. What might be getting in the way and how they can be a part of continuing to make things better.
Simon: Wow. Thank you so much.
Aransas: Thank you, Simon. Thank you, Dave. And thank you listeners for joining us on this journey. Reach out to us. We want to hear about your employee experience. And we want to hear the trends that you're noticing in terms of that experience. We wouldn't do this show without you, and we are so grateful to you for investing your time in us.
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