The Experience Strategy Podcast: Digital Health Technology Improving Patient Journeys

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In part 1 of our series on Digital Innovation in Healthcare In today’s episode, we’re discussing why now is the moment for healthcare to look at patient journeys through fresh eyes. Joined by Tom Donnelly, Ph.D., who has a background in psychology and leads the MedTech group at Branding Science, we look at how digital interventions can lead to better health outcomes and other ways technology can improve the patient experience.

Voiceover: [00:00:00] This is the experience strategy podcast, where we look at the best and the worst customer experiences and ask what were they thinking? And now here are your hosts experience, nerds, Dave Norton and Aransas.

Aransas: Savis welcome to the experience strategy podcast. I'm Miranda Savvis. And Dave, today, we are going to talk about why now is the moment that healthcare needs to look at patient journeys through fresh eyes.

And to do this, we're going to be joined by Tom Donnelly from med tech, uh, which is part of branding science. And Tom has a really interesting and unique background. Certainly. Uh, he's done lots of research and consultation, but he also is. Working with and tell us Worldwide's clear health communication, task force, and focusing on health literacy can improve healthcare outcomes.

So he's really a perfect guy to have in the room at this moment, [00:01:00] especially given all the work he's done to understand how digital intervenes. Can lead to healthcare outcomes. He is a founding member of the digital health care collaborative, the incredible group of thought leaders that you formed. Dave, working with pharmaceutical manufacturers, providers, medical systems, health insurance companies, et cetera, to take a holistic view at how we better serve patients as customers.

Tom, so excited to have you here, especially given. All the work that you've done in psychology and statistics to get a deeper, I think more well-rounded view of this conversation. You have had quite a career. What are you focused on these days?

Tom: Well, yeah, thanks for having me. Um, so these days I lead a med tech group at branding science.

We do a primary market research as well as human factors. And what I've been [00:02:00] focused on is trying to really understand how digital health and med tech can really help improve things, uh, in healthcare. So. You know, one of the things we'll be talking about today is, uh, patient journeys and what ways med tech could help.

Uh, I also help my company with, uh, their inclusion team, which has been an interesting adventure, uh, as well as leading a health literacy team, uh, for Intellus worldwide.

Aransas: Wow.

Tom: It's my passion for really trying to help people. I mean, I started off as an academic, uh, got a PhD in cognitive psychology from NYU, and I really wanted to understand, you know, how the mind works, how we think, uh, memory language.

And as I started going through my career, I realized that, you know, motivation and what people are really striving to do, you know, comes out of how we think. And, and I really wanted to help people in shaping their behavior to be able to have healthier lives.

Aransas: I [00:03:00] love that. And I know you've been focused on health journeys for some time.

Um, let's start by talking about patient journeys and, and how that relates to the work that you've been doing, knowing that so many of our listeners are not in this space and our hope is that they will find some inspiration in the way that you are looking at patient journeys, whether they're in the healthcare field or.

I don't know, serving coffee.

Tom: Sure. That makes sense. It's really important, obviously, to be thinking about the journey the customer, the patient goes on at branding science. We actually do a lot of patient journey work and we are very centered on having our, helping our clients help their patients have better lives.

Um, but you know, as you know, Dave, that I've been working with, uh, Mary Putnam, who actually was a recent guest of yours, uh, thinking about. Digital health technology, how we can leverage that to improve patient journeys. Um, we've looked at [00:04:00] things like chronic, acute and wellness journeys. And it's really interesting because, you know, as you've pointed out, as we go on through the, uh, digital health care collaborative, as I know you guys have talked about that patient journey work really falls short in so many different ways.

Uh, the way we traditionally do. And so that's one of the things I thought we could talk about is, you know, not only how digital health could help, but also ways to maybe improve just doing patient journey work in general.

Dave: Um, and, and you're absolutely right. We have done quite a bit of work around this particular aspect.

And I'm wondering Tom, from your point of view, how should healthcare companies be thinking about patient journey?

Tom: Well, I think it's important to take a real holistic point of view and to really be thinking about unmet needs and rather than simply thinking about the way the journey is. You know, how could it be and how could be improved?

Especially obviously we're talking about [00:05:00] experience and having, you know, meaningful experiences, but so many things are left on the table because people are focused on their small part of the journey. And so I think one of the important things is to take a step back and think about what the journey could really look.

Dave: More broad-based than is what you're trying to say across the board, across the overall patient experience with everything that's going on today, in terms of the changes that are happening in healthcare, how do you take kind of a holistic view of patient journey? What does that look like? Hmm.

Tom: Well, there's definitely a lot of ways to think about it.

Uh, the first thing that comes to mind for me is to try to do observational research, to see what's happening in the natural environment. Uh, and I can tell you some of the work I did, for example, in home health care. But if you observe how people are currently behaving and you [00:06:00] can see what kind of workarounds they naturally use, then you might think of ways that you could implement things that could be better.

Um, so in particular, obviously I'm focused on thinking about, uh, med tech and digital tools and how we can help patients experiences. Uh, often, you know, companies are more focused on their specific product, their specific disease state, uh, and they're not really thinking about the whole journey. And so I think they often miss important elements and even things like we've talked about, like considering emotional data as part of what you could collect or considering the family, you know, and health advocates, you know, what does the individual, what are their goals and their motivations?

Yeah. And how do you make it individually?

Dave: You know, one of the things that I like about where you're going with this is that the, it is truly the patient journey, not the, um, chronic [00:07:00] condition journey per se, but it's the patient's holistic journey. And of course, There's a role for the chronic condition to play in that holistic journey that you're describing.

But I think you're right. Oftentimes if we're working with pharmaceutical companies, they're only focused on aspects of the patient journey that really mattered to keeping them on the medication that they're a manufacturing. If we're talking to. Providers they think heavily about the visit and what happens post the visit or post op or whatever.

But, um, the day-to-day life of the individual doesn't really seem to register for them. Is that, is that what you're describing, Tom, that kind of holistic or that kind of narrow, specific view needing to be expanded? Is that, is that how you kind of.

Tom: Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it's obviously, you know, [00:08:00] for the given client that given company, you want to make sure you're covering the aspects that you are already interested in and that you're working on a product or something for, obviously you want to cover that, but by taking that step back and looking at it holistically, you might uncover, you know, other areas that you could help, or maybe even in partnership with other people, because.

You know, there are so many different types of stakeholders you could be thinking about patients, you know, and they're used for example of health trackers, you know, in trying to collect data, you could be thinking about healthcare practitioners, you know, how they may be using home monitoring. For example, you might think about payers, you know, that are providing, you know, the payments for these things and covering the insurance.

Maybe they have a chronic health app. And so. You know, everyone has their point of view and they have different goals in what they're developing, what they're trying to do, you know, but whether it be, you know, trying to predict disease, uh, [00:09:00] monitoring health, or helping with adherence, you really want to take that step back and think about the, the full picture.

Because again, there may be a partnership or something that you could add to the experience that isn't already there.

Aransas: I love that because ultimately what matters. These devices and these treatments serve the patient and that it leads to better outcomes. And so what I'm hearing you say is that we should be looking holistically at all of our resources and possible partnerships and all of the digital technology available to us to drive outcomes.

And if the patient is feeling a sense of resistance, because the way we're motivating and encouraging them is. Not a good fit with their lives, not a good fit with their values, not something they care about, then we're not going to see those outcomes. And so it's, it's really, it's, it's taking this fully patient centric view toward [00:10:00] outcomes, but leveraging the broad, more modern spectrum of tools and assets that we have available to meet that need.

Tom: Yeah, that's so true. And obviously each patient has their own individual needs and goals and issues. You can try to think about different types, obviously, you know, older people, perhaps that aren't great with technology. How would you deal with that kind of user versus someone who's younger and used to using different, uh, technology, you know, and we won't go into depth, but obviously we segmentation may not really be the way to go, but if you can have a smart or even genius device that could actually help individualize things, uh, that might be an even better place.

Dave: One of the things we're interested in asking you, Tom, about is. A lot of these things that you're describing are kind of general principles about stepping back, understanding the whole [00:11:00] patient, the entire experience. Have you seen any changes or shifts that have occurred in the way that we think about patient journey that are results of the pandemic for.

Tom: Yeah. I mean, that's a great point. Um, you know, because of the pandemic, it's really accelerated the use of technology to try to provide healthcare in so many different ways. Uh, one of the biggest things that I've noticed is that there's more. Work done in the home. You know, if you can keep the patients home or get them home sooner, they actually have better outcomes.

And so, you know, some of the work that I've done recently was in a home health care. And what was really interesting is that, you know, it's better economically. It's better for the patient. You just have to figure out the new logistics. So for example, you may have a particular device that's being used for infusion.

In a [00:12:00] clinic. How is that going to work in the home? When it's been designed for a nurse to provide it in a clinic setting. Now, either someone is coming to visit the home and helping you do it at home, or perhaps the patient is actually giving it to themselves. So when the manufacturer originally designed the device, They weren't thinking of patients at home, they were thinking of nurses in the clinic.

So it brings a new level of a design element that you have to think about not only changing the user and changing the environment. So that's, I think one of the trends I've seen is more at home, so that it's a better experience for the.

Dave: So in essence, what you're saying is that home is not only the place where we go to be home and to rest.

It's also the place where we go oftentimes to do our work. If we're working full time from home in a remote work environment and in the near future, it may very well be our kind of [00:13:00] mini hospital or are, are a recovery center or something along that line where. We might have a room that's dedicated to healthcare or our bedroom might have to play two different roles, depending on the way that we're managing a particular condition or we're recovering from an acute situation or something along that line.

Is that kind of what you're describing?

Tom: Exactly. And I think even to your second point, is that while it would be ideal to have separate dedicated rooms for things like you would at a hospital in point of fact, you probably don't. And what we saw when we were doing observational research is often the place where they're getting the at home infusion.

Is right around the dining room table, uh, or it's in the living room while you're sitting in a chair and then you can see that the nurse comes in and she doesn't have any place to set up. You know, there has to be a clean space where she can sanitize it, perhaps put down, [00:14:00] uh, you know, some sort of drape so that she could do all the things she has to do in preparation.

Uh, the often you have animals, you know, dogs or cats that are around, it may not be as you know, sanitary as you would in a hospital setting. You know, you could have children, there's obviously there's noise in a hospital, but there's different types of noise at home. And so it's, it's adapting to that environment and thinking of the new ways, the new workarounds that you'll need to have set up.

Um, there's so many things.

Aransas: And I think as, as I look back to the big.com bubble of the early odds and how many retailers and service providers kind of just did a drag and drop, they were like, well, this is what we do in person. Let's dump it online. We all saw how that turned out. The people who took that approach really struggled because there were all these legacy processes that were then baked into their [00:15:00] technology and they ultimately made it harder for themselves to operate.

It was something that created a lot of tech debt and a lot of issues, but what you're advising here. And I think this is just so smart in this moment of transformation. Instead of doing a drag and drop, do the work. Now take a fresh look at what's really happening when people are delivering these services at home.

Look at who the service provider is, liquid, where they are sitting, look at where the patient is, how this is fitting into their broader context of their lives. What their needs are, do a fresh assessment and build for them. Rather than building for the old and that, that kind of thinking while it's, you know, it may take a little bit more upfront investment.

I believe just from what we've seen over the last 20 years is really going to save people so much [00:16:00] in the longterm and give them the headstart on delivering these things effective. On

Tom: the one hand you want to think about, you know, the specific, uh, environment and situation, because, you know, you're thinking, as you say, from the point of view of here's, what we've done, drag and drop, you know, but now you're in a new environment, which is not the usual clinical environment, you're with a new user and you have to really put yourself in that situation to figure out what it's going to be like.

So when you're doing, for example, human factors work, you want things to be in as realistic, a situation as possible. So you want to try to use, you know, the, the animal or the human tissue that's going to be used for the device. For example, if it's something that's going to be used in an ambulance, do you want to study it in an ambulance that might be moving because you don't know what you don't know unless you've actually studied it in that situation.

So it's a great example of saying, you know, don't just drag and [00:17:00] drop.

Dave: Yeah, no, I love where you guys are going with this. And it's reminded me of a number of studies that we've done over the years, uh, where we've been studying, uh, clinic environments, and the way that nurse practitioners engage with, uh, doctors and get.

Fax machines. And then we've been doing all of these studies in home environments where we're talking to consumers about how they prepare their meals and so forth. And now I think what you're saying is, is that we really need to be thinking about the patient journey. The patient experience at home where the patient has more control, maybe the way that, and you've probably already thought about this, Tom, but they're probably thinking about their medical technology as being more like the apps and tools and devices that they use on a regular basis.

More like a [00:18:00] phone, which leads to the. Further consumerization of healthcare. Right. And this is a big topic within healthcare consumerization. What the, what the consumer expects from healthcare is similar to what they expect from other parts of their lives, where they're at home. Any thoughts on that? Um,

Tom: yeah, I mean, you make a lot of great points.

Um, one of the things though that I thought of as you were talking is. Habit. And there are so many things we do without even realizing that we do that. You know, for example, when you tie your shoe, you know, which way do you put the laces? You know, do you put on, you know, both socks before you put on both shoes?

And there are so many things you don't realize you're doing because it's just out of habit. You, this is how you do it. And it's only when you're observing how someone is doing something you realize, ah, they do [00:19:00] step one, then step two, then step three, you could then obviously ask them if there's a reason why they do it in that way.

But that's how you end up innovating because you see, you know, that's the place where we could use the technology. And to your point, if you can make it something that the consumer is in control of, and that fits their lifestyle, it will be more integrated into their life and be more successful because, you know, at the.

Forefront of our minds should be trying to have, uh, patients have healthier lives and to optimize that, you know, it probably needs to be things that are in their control that they could, you know, help, uh, whether it be, you know, for example, taking our medication, sometimes you just simply forget. And so you can have reminders or you can have one of those pill boxes so that, you know, oh yes.

Did I take it or not? Uh, or perhaps one of the pill bottles that when you open it, it keeps track of how many pills are in there. But you need to focus on the habits of the end user [00:20:00] in their environment in order to be successful.

Aransas: And you're speaking my language here, of course, with habits and the, the truth is every bit of technology that we introduce into this.

Every one of the logistics that you're mentioning is either going to be friction or it's going to be fuel. And if it fits in their life, It can be fuel. If it's meaningfully motivating, it can be fuel. If it rubs against what matters to them, if it rubs against their habits, if it doesn't fit into their lives, it's friction and they won't do it.

They will actively create continuous resistance and all the outcomes that the, that we're driving towards our sacrifice there. And, uh, I think your approach there to. To use this observational research to really get to know people and how they interact with these things in real life. That is, to me, the most essential thing that we've talked about so far,

Dave: you know, our instance, I want to talk about that for a second, because oftentimes [00:21:00] when companies create patient journeys or they create journeys in general, they have a tendency to turn their process.

Into the phases that the user has to follow. So there needs to be a discovery phase because why, because, uh, that's part of their process. There needs to be, um, a phase that is specific, uh, to rival, uh, to, um, getting set up. And, and why do those phases exist again? It's because of their process. And when you start talking about it's either friction.

Fuel, it forces us to think about patient journey in terms of, well, why couldn't they completely skip this part of our process and instead do it the way that they want to do it, which is far more empowering for the patient and makes it a patient journey rather than a [00:22:00] process journey.

Tom: You know, as you know, we've, you know, presented and published on, you know, what is.

A healthcare tool, which is a frustrating, or we used to call stupid. Uh, so for example, it collects data, but it uses it in the wrong way. Uh, maybe it should be, um, it's making the experience worse. It's just simply frustrating. So we used to call that stupid. Now we're calling it frustrated, uh, something that's not smart.

We used to call a dumb. Uh, tool, it doesn't use the data, but it gets the job done. So this could just be a paper and pencil approach, which is fine. It's just not digital. Um, obviously the next level up is if you have a smart device, this is what I think most of us are used to that it's using your data to make the experience easier.

And. Now, what we've been talking about in the collaborative is something that's genius. So it uses the data to make the experience truly helpful. It creates a better health outcome. It may be [00:23:00] predicts things for you. It serves them up. Uh, so it really becomes a genius. Maybe, perhaps a superpower.

Dave: Yeah, this is a stone mantle framework, stupid, dumb, smart genius.

We, we found that, uh, using the word stupid and dumb sometimes are hard on, uh, consumers. So, uh, we've adapted it a little bit, but tell us a little bit about how you're using this particular frame.

Tom: Sure. So I was just, you know, getting ready actually for my, uh, preventative wellness journey. Uh, my aunt had colon cancer when she was in her fifties.

She survived, thankfully. Uh, but because of that, you know, I have to go in early for my colonoscopy. So five years ago I went through and did that and all went well. Uh, earlier this year at my wellness visit, my doctor reminded me, oh, this is the year to do the procedure again, which of course, you know, none of us are thrilled to do these things.

Um, Th that primary care practice [00:24:00] actually was acquired by a medical system that included the same gastroenterology practice that I had my last procedure in. Um, so what was interesting to me at first was I got a text message reminder from them saying, Hey, don't forget. And I was very impressed. I thought this was a smart tool that five years later they actually text message me to remind me it's time to schedule things so that, okay, great.

Um, I put things off a little bit because you know, earlier this year I didn't have that vaccine yet. And then work was busy. So finally I got around to making the appointment. I went to their website, you know, I found the phone number, uh, and they said, oh, you have to go on our site. You have to download this.

Okay, fine. So I get the form, fill it out, printed it. And what do you think they wanted me to do with this form?

Dave: They wanted you to fax it. I bet they wanted

Tom: me to fax it. I can't even believe it's still, is this a situation? And of course. Scanner printer fax, or for some reason, doesn't give me a confirmation, like [00:25:00] the old days with the facts.

So I called in to say, Hey, did you receive this? And they said, oh yes, we received it. We'll be in touch, you know, in a few weeks. And of course, when are they going to call me while I'm in a business meeting? Luckily I noticed on the phone, what it was from down. Okay, when are we going to set up this appointment?

Uh, and then they say, oh, we're going to send you instructions on what you have to do. Luckily, these days it's tablets and not the, the drink that you have to do. Um, but so I went from being impressed that they had this smart tool to remind me to being frustrated. My medical background, hadn't changed. You know, I had to refill everything out and, you know, crazy that I had to fax it to them.

Obviously my medical insurance had changed, but because I'm part of the primary care practice, they already had that information. It's the same medical system. You would think they already had it. They don't have to ask for it. And then it was several back and forth phone calls to coordinate things. Why not just give me.

A calendar link where I [00:26:00] can go in and choose my date and time. So it, and obviously, hopefully my journey is going to be fairly simple, but it just illustrates where a digital tool could really improve the experience.

Dave: You know, this reminds me of a set segment that we often do on this podcast called what were they thinking?

Right. They sent you this really smart alert and then the rest of the process broke down. And my guess is, is that part of the reason is, is that. Using off the shelf technology, uh, they don't have one cohesive approach. And one of the things that we know about genius solutions is that the genius actually comes from the system systemic way in which the organization is able to gather and collect the data.

And use that data to predict and so forth. And it sounds like instead what they did was they kind of made this [00:27:00] promise to you a little bit of a promise. This is going to be a smart experience because they had some off the shelf technology, but the rest of the process was not integrated. And therefore.

What fax machine is genius. Right? Let's just start right there. So

Aransas: once genius it's simply has no law,

Dave: right? That was a long time ago. That was in the fifties. I think when it was, oh my God. Yeah, we're closer to 2050 than we are to 1950. So that just tells you how long ago that was. So, and, and that still happens in healthcare on a regular basis.

Have to figure out ways to overcome that. Don't we?

Tom: That's true. I think

Aransas: it's such a good example though, of what you said in the very beginning though, Tom, that these companies have to take a fresh look at the service design. And instead of [00:28:00] assuming we can drag and drop and that it's cool. Just gotta got to replace those things we were already doing and keep moving forward and expect them to work.

We have to actually look at what's happening and take a fresh look at that. And to me, I mean, that's, that's the essence of all of this. It's not that communication is bad. It's important for you to have a way to communicate back and forth with your provider. The intention is super, it was a ridiculously bad, an outmoded fit for accomplishing that.

Tom: And for me, the funny thing is it's simply a matter of perspective and point of view, it they're focused on them, their service, their product, what makes it easier for them? Maybe cost-effective, they're not thinking about the patient, the end user, the customer who is coming to them with their problem. You know, if they were thinking from their point of [00:29:00] view, they might make some simple fixes to make it a better experience.

Absolutely almost reminds me of that show. I think it's called undercover boss. You know, perhaps people in charge need to be the patients in the services and see what they got.

Dave: I love about this conversation is this now is a good time to take a fresh set of eyes to the entire healthcare experience. And it may seem obvious we're still somewhat in the pandemic.

Especially healthcare workers are dealing with these types of situations on a regular basis, but over the next couple of years, taking a fresh. Set of eyes to what has been considered conventional or traditional or the way that we've always done things will yield some very different results. And I think that's really powerful.

Aransas: I want to put in a plug for. Product led thinking too, though, [00:30:00] you know, I I'm, I'm watching this right now is my husband's and television news and they are going through their own transformation. How do we take something that was traditionally delivered via one media and transition it over to a more digitally led environment and.

Truth is if they just use their business people and the people who've been in their newsroom to figure that out, they're going to make business and newsroom decisions, which is kind of what I hear Tom talking about. It's like we end up making operational decisions. We make these cost led decisions, but if you're going to deliver in a digital environment, you need people who are experts at delivering in the digital environment.

Pretty pervasively. Now those are people who are trained in agile product delivery and who are thinking about journeys and who are thinking about patient customer, viewer, you name it needs. And, and so I do think that it it's about [00:31:00] bringing the right people into the room with the right skill sets. If people are going to make these decisions wisely because making them just based on what they've always known in the settings, they've always known.

We, I think we know what happened there.

Tom: You know, other occurs to me as you're talking is that, you know, in the past we were doing, you know, pay for service and now things are coming around to, you know, the outcomes and you're responsible for, you know, a population and making sure that they have, you know, healthy outcomes.

And if you are so focused in, on sort of what was this fragmented experience, you know, as we're consolidating practices, like I mentioned, You're not really thinking about the bigger picture. And if you want better economics for your situation, you need to get the better outcomes. Well, in order to get the better outcomes, you really need the patient to do their part.

And sometimes the patient isn't gonna do their part. When they're fumbling through the experience, you know, they [00:32:00] have their own habits. And there, you know, as you say, they're frustrated with the friction that you're providing them. Well, maybe now they're not going to go refill their medication or take their medication or get their preventative colonoscopy or whatever it might be because you didn't make it a good and easy experience.

Um,

Aransas: the phrase I keep hearing is we have this conversation is penny wise, pound foolish. And I think probably that's the real risk here. People need to do that stuff, right. If they're going to do it, do it right, or don't do it.

Dave: You know, I like the idea of friction and making things frictionless. I like the idea better of describing why the consumer, the patient goes to digital in the first place.

And I think that it's because it closes the gap between thought and action. Digital's big promises is that it's going to close the gap. Sometimes we call that being frictionless, but it's not just about convenience. [00:33:00] It's also about the ability to think of something that I need to get done and to have that as instantaneously done as possible.

So it's not just about making things more convenient. It's about really understanding what the patient is trying to do. And then use technology to anticipate that for the next person or the next person and so forth. So, uh, sometimes it's better to describe it that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

Aransas: I think there's room for both in terms of how we think, and it gives us a nice jumping off point.

I think there though, to talk about what our big experience strategy takeaways are from this episode. So I'll, I'll take a first stab at it and you guys build in and. And correct me. Um, but first of all, I think for me, whether it be with patient journeys are well beyond, um, there is this reminder and this incredibly important lesson to think about patient journeys in [00:34:00] integrated way.

Instead of looking at the moment to moment, let's look at what happens across the journey and let's look at what's meeting. To the patient or the customer. The second thing is that home health care has got lots of great benefits for both companies and patients, but we cannot just drag and drop the logistics, have to adapt.

It is a new journey and they need to look at it with fresh eyes. They need to look at the service design to reflect that new reality, to allow these companies to build competitive advantages and smart services. And the third, I would say. Digital technology is either going to provide friction or fuel and they're going to fit with people's lives where it's not.

And if you're not fitting in to people's lives, it's not going to work to drive outcomes because you're just going to build more resistance. And so instead of looking at these sort of linear patient journeys that we've used guidance for so long, we need to look really closely at what matters to people and how they live with our products.

And the last [00:35:00] one I will say. Most loudly as to Dave's point at the end, genius solutions are going to help people follow through by using data to make the experience helpful. They're going to create better outcomes. They're going to be able to predict things for us, and that is where companies really have the potential to address.

Why do you want to add Dave?

Dave: No, I like, I like what you're saying. I'm especially excited by this idea of now is the time for healthcare to, um, look at the patient journey through fresh eyes. Um, I think that that's a really, really important takeaway for me from this episode.

Tom: Now, if I could add one more thing that occurs to me as you guys are talking.

Is often the patient, we are our own worst enemy. And if you could have that genius tool that could help us do what we know we need to do or should be doing that could get us [00:36:00] all in a better place.

Aransas: Absolutely Tom, thank you so much for sharing your incredible experience and wisdom to us. For those of you listening, you can hear more from Tom on his incredible podcast. You find it on Spotify or@medtechchat.com. Thank you so much for listening to the experience strategy podcast. Let us know what you want to hear more of at our website, the experience strategy, podcast.com or on all the places on social media.

Tom, thank you again. Look forward to having you back on the show soon. Thanks for.

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