The Experience Strategy Podcast: Making Healthcare Convenient

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There is an undeniable increase in demand for more convenient healthcare. In today’s episode, we are joined by thought leader and Chief Scientist for the Health and Human-Machine Systems Group at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory, Michael McShea, to talk about the why and how of making healthcare more convenient and helpful for patients. Join us for Part 2 of our series on Digital Innovation in Healthcare as we discuss how technology is helping healthcare providers work better, and patients heal better.

Voiceover: [00:00:00] This is the experience strategy podcast, where we look at the best and the worst customer experiences and ask, what were they thinking? And now here are your hosts experience, nerds, Dave Norton and Aransas. Savis

Aransas: welcome to the experience strategy podcast. I'm Aransas, Savvis, and Dave. Today we are joined by Mike McShay to talk about the why and how.

Making the historically not at all convenient prospect of receiving healthcare, more convenient, more helpful to patients and the ways in which digital innovation is really helping to make our healthcare providers better. At what they do. So Mike comes to us as the chief scientist for the health and human machine systems group [00:01:00] at the Johns Hopkins applied physics laboratory.

He supports the national health mission area and works with the military. The system with Johns Hopkins medicine and lots of other academic medical research organizations and federal agencies on population health on precision health tele-health decision support, AI and digital health initiatives in general.

Michael is also part of care. First blue cross blue shield board of directors joining them in 2016, he serves on their audit and compliance teams. He is also part of the digital health care collaborative, which you've heard as mentioned on prior shows, which is sort of a cross industry consortium that we lead that, uh, really serves to advance research in digital health engagement.

He has been a strategic advisor to companies across the board and started his career. I think it Phillips healthcare. [00:02:00] Anyway, he is the man when it comes to knowing what's happening in digital health technology. So let's bring him in Mike, you've got a lot going on. Thank you so much for taking time out to talk to us today, in your words, who are you?

What do you do? What drives you?

Michael: No, thank you very much. It's nice to be here, I guess. Uh, the, the plain and simple of it is I do feel like I am a digital health evangelist, um, and a long time coming. I think really interesting things going on in digital health, uh, hoping that your audience finds that interesting from an experience standpoint as well.

Uh, I'm actually a technology person by trade product executives, across many different kinds of products in healthcare and digital. The one that I think.

Aransas: I agree. Having worked in both experience and product, I'm a [00:03:00] huge advocate for product led thinking, uh, in solving so many of these big issues that healthcare companies are facing.

So really, really excited to have you here and to learn a little bit more about what you're seeing these days. It, it feels like every part of our lives has been up ended and. Tossed in the spin cycle as a result of the pandemic. And certainly healthcare is one of the big spaces where we're seeing that play out.

So from your perspective, how has COVID shifted the consumer demand and expectation for virtual offerings?

Michael: I think, I think what's happened is, um, pretty. Uh, the trifecta, um, you know, at the same time, Uh, that consumers are really getting comfortable with virtual healthcare. Um, their [00:04:00] expectations are also rising for what kind of experience to expect from, from healthcare delivery that way.

And as you know, healthcare is not best-known as we all know, because we're all consumers of healthcare services. How care is not exactly an industry that's well-known for delivering good experiences. And so I think what you have is, um, an increased comfort level with a larger number of people at the same time, you know, consumer demand is rising for more convenient healthcare services.

Uh, and it's, uh, it's really pushing things forward. So

Dave: you talked about it as a trifecta, so you've got. Increased demand for better customer experiences. You've got the, uh, COVID plus what's the third element of the trifecta. Yeah,

Michael: the third, the third element is not to get a little wonky on you on healthcare.

But, um, the third element is a shift to value based care and the real issue with, uh, [00:05:00] with healthcare and digital health services and a lot of the innovation, um, finding its way into healthcare delivery has been the lack of reimbursement. And so now that value based care is starting to gain some momentum.

It really doesn't matter. You know, whether it's a particular technology or capability is reimbursed or not. Um, the, the healthcare systems, uh, involved with delivering these services are more motivated now to provide better care, um, and deliver better outcomes at lower costs and virtual fits really nicely into that model.

You

Dave: know, and we can describe, uh, I think for the general audience, what value-based care is, but basically it means that the healthcare provider is going to get paid. If better, if you have a. Outcome for the patient. So if the patient has a better outcome over time and that's demonstrable and it's not just one patient, but [00:06:00] a number of patients, the population as a whole, how can they can demonstrate that there's an outcome that's better then the healthcare providers likely to be in reimbursed in a better way?

Is that, am I describing that right,

Michael: Mike, essentially. I think that the. Um, the really interesting thing is that, you know, that really removes a lot of the barriers to adoption that were there previously. Not that there's not plenty more barriers and challenges, uh, but as long as the healthcare providers are motivated to deliver the most efficient care and to get the best outcome, that's really what value based care is.

All.

Dave: I didn't emphasize the efficiency part of it, which is a separate thing. But as an experienced strategist, the thing that's running through my head, uh, when I, when I hear about value-based care is that the patient actually has to [00:07:00] have a better outcome. Therefore, the company is going to get paid for the experience that they have.

That leads to actual recovery, which is very powerful. And it's very different than a lot of models out there where we talk about being customer centered or customer focused here, you have to demonstrate that you actually delivered for them. And I think that's really fascinating.

Michael: Yeah, sure. It is Dave.

And I think, you know, it's really interesting as well. How. Convenience plays into that. Right. And then think about all the different challenges of getting access to care. Um, and digital health really proves that access, uh, in a way that's more convenient for patients. Um, you know, think of digital first primary care, which is a big trend.

Um, and there's a lot going on in the market around us. Um, where'd that come from? Why are our big companies [00:08:00] offering it with, you know, potentially even free virtual visit? Well, the reason is it puts them in a position to, um, more conveniently address patient needs that might not get addressed at all.

Otherwise think of preventative care and things of that sort. And so it it's interesting, the economics actually work out so that, um, you know, even zero payments, um, for virtual first primary care is a better overall deal for everyone.

Dave: That's amazing. So you said what drives you is advocating for technology for digital in healthcare?

What are some of the things that are, you're getting most excited about? Maybe you have like a top 10 list of things, or can you give us some of the things that you're excited about and don't be afraid to be a little bit wonky.

Michael: Okay. Well, I, I, um, I don't know if we have time for all 10 things, but I'll give you some of [00:09:00] the, some of the things that I've been watching really carefully.

And, you know, I think, um, um, it's, it's, there's been a lot in the news, quite frankly, it kind of signals the shifts that are going on, but the things that get me excited and I'll give you a couple of examples. I think that everybody might have seen when Teladoc acquired Lavango for $18 billion, not too long ago.

Well, they're finally starting to roll out services around Lavango. Um, and if people don't know on the, on the listening to the podcast here is a, uh, one of the leaders in providing digital health capabilities early on, they were acquired by Teladoc. Now they're actually combining, uh, my strength, which was a mental health component of Teladoc with actual psychiatrist to create my strengths, which is.

We're all all-inclusive service. And so I think one of the interesting trends that, that points to that's going on in many areas of a digital healthcare is the combination [00:10:00] of a digital solution with an actual virtual access to a real person. And you see that going on in multiple places. So I think that's one key trend that I'm watching.

So,

Dave: so Teladoc, which is kind of known for their ability to get you, um, a virtual appointment with a doctor been around for a long time. They've now connected with Lavango, which is known for its digital. Competency. Did I get that right? And you now have the entire package of both artificial intelligence as well as real people, um, to work with.

Michael: That's exactly right. And so what you see is really a combination of digital and instead of in-person care, um, virtual in-person. Uh, able to, as another company, [00:11:00] that's doing a similar thing in the mental health space. And I mentioned nuMe as well as, as an example of many services around, um, life coaching for wellness.

Um, that actually gives you access potentially to a real live coach, even over a virtual communication channel. We're

Aransas: so excited about that. It has been, we just did an episode a couple of weeks ago about the potential here for impact and the power of combining the strengths of digital tools with the strengths of.

Human support. And, and I think from, I mean, the, the science has been pretty clear already, and the research has been done to look at the efficacy of hybrid services like that. And it is powerful stuff, both from a business standpoint, so much more scalable than human alone, but from a consumer standpoint, there's so much more potential to get really smart [00:12:00] data, to support that human interaction in a meaningful way.

Michael: That's exactly right. And another interesting trend related to that is potentially putting a bot to an AI bot if you will, in between, um, the patient or consumer and that live resource initially. Um, and that's a really interesting trick that they've, you'll recognize from, you know, the customer service industry of the past.

Um, and so the idea is that the chat bot can collect information that can make the experience both move more personalized. Um, but also, um, you know, more to the top of the license of the clinical person, that might be another end of the, of the chat. Um, and so you see, uh, a couple of interesting things going on there.

Um, Amwell bought a company called conversa not too long ago. And so they're definitely going that direction. You also see some [00:13:00] tele-health services that are front ended by a trio. A chat bot, a health assistant type mechanism. So Babylon health is a good example of that along with 98.6 M and K health. So I think what we're seeing here is a really interesting blend of digital and more automated interactions together with person interactions.

Dave: So, Mike, are you suggesting that. Eventually at some point we may not have to fill out all of those forms because the chat bot will actually do all. Yeah. Do all of the intake for us and oh, by the way, we're not going to have to. You interact with that chat bot every single step along the way, because it will be able to connect us or make sure that that data is there and everything is signed and ready.

Is that what you're describing? [00:14:00]

Michael: Yeah, I think, um, you know, let's say that some of the technologies needed to make that. You know, utopia, you just described a possible are starting to mature and they're maturing in smaller ways, right? Like just a front ending of tele-health that sort of thing. But I think it also creates this notion of on demand healthcare, in some sense, because you can have that more automated AI driven interaction that can then transition to a live person, you know, over virtual channel.

Um, You know, uh, to meet your needs better. And so that kind of sense of on demand, um, it's like the Netflix model for healthcare, right. And I think even the, um, you know, the digital first primary care offerings I mentioned earlier, I really trying to, to kind of replicate that, you know, I could get what the care I need when I need it.

Um, when I want it, how I want it. Um, Netflix.

Dave: That's fantastic. The fact that we're at least [00:15:00] moving to the level of what we currently have already an entertainment and have had for the last five to seven years. So exciting to see

Aransas: there's a whole economic disconnect though, right? It's also though, I mean, shout out to Mike and his crew.

And I said this on our last episode, but I'm going to keep saying it on every episode that I can. So many of these industries, they started with product people and they took a product first approach to designing their digital solutions. Whereas so many other industries, we saw take a business first approach to designing these solutions.

And so they took a purely operational mindset and then created a whole bunch of debt and legacy issues in their digital solutions. And I. I don't think we can talk about healthcare without bringing that up. That when we look at these from the consumer's perspective and we look at their [00:16:00] needs and their experience, we end up with better designs.

Um, and certainly this idea of extending that now to hybrid solutions opens up a whole new world of opportunity there to just be better for our customers.

Michael: So I hope you're right. I hope you're right. I do think that healthcare does have the opportunity that you're describing to kind of skip over all the missteps, um, potentially and go into a more digital first experience, but we'll see, we'll see.

Dave: Um, Mike, let's build on this for a second here, so we could have the Netflix version of healthcare, which would be fantastic, a huge leap forward. But I wonder if there's an opportunity to go even further and to have your own personal healthcare, digital assistant. Do you see anything happening around a.

Digital [00:17:00] assistant type of a thing, uh, where people can, um, can trust a particular AI to support them on an individual

Michael: basis. So I'm going to be a little bit more maybe skeptical on that front day. I mean, I think just thinking of the, that the degree to which. Um, those kinds of technologies need to be driven by all the right data and realizing how fragmented our data is right now.

I think that the technology is evolving in a direction that could support that. Uh, but in order to have that level of intelligence into a healthcare assistant, it has to have all the right data. And he said something, some good things are happening on that front. But as you know, we've talked about before, you know how our data is fragmented across so many different sources.

There's some good things happening there to bring all together. But until that happens, it's going to be hard to safely use the technology that way. Um, I think that some of [00:18:00] the good things that are happening to create more data though, are connecting, uh, medical devices, um, at a consumer level to support telehealth services.

So there's some interesting things happening there, um, that create more data to do more of that kind of health care assistant. Um, you know, function safely, but, um, without all your data, it's going to be a while. But when that happens,

Dave: do you see a role for a, if you had to choose a company right now that may have a leg up on this, is it somebody like apple with their apple health, uh, platform?

Is it. Somebody like epic with their access to medical records and platforms where might this, that type of a thing come from?

Michael: Yeah, that's a great question, Dave. And I've been trying to answer that question my entire career, and I don't have an answer yet. I mean, apple made some great headway in connecting, um, you know, to, uh, medical records, [00:19:00] um, you know, apple health.

Um, that doesn't feel like it's gained enough momentum and critical mass to really change the game yet, but that's one interesting development. Um, but there's also some really interesting things on the regulatory front. You told me I could get wonky, so I'm going to go there. Um, the, the actual law just changed really recently in a way that says that any healthcare entity that has your data has to give it to you and has to give it to you, uh, through convenient.

Um, Interface, um, that you can actually use to direct third parties to acquire all your data. So it's only a matter of time before someone figures out how to take advantage of that. Uh, and that should accelerate, I think, really getting up more cohesive and complete medical record for us individually.

What

Dave: else excited about Mike? Tell me what's what you're seeing that you're excited about.

Michael: So I think. You know, I think that this move to more care in the home environment is interesting. [00:20:00] And again, it's, it's about the convenience. It's about efficiency though, at the same time. Um, there's finally a company out there that's challenging.

TytoCare who's had a home-based device for basic kind of primary care for awhile called Nanigans that just, um, branded themselves, uh, and launched in the market not too long ago. Um, you know, so I'm very excited about those kinds of home-based devices. There's even a home-based devices for more critical and chronic issues like home dialysis, for example.

And I think we've all seen the commercials, um, on, on, uh, Libra freestyle, um, the continuous glucose monitoring. So we're getting more and more wired up and that's creating more and more data, which creates more and more interesting applications.

Dave: Yeah, freestyle library. Abbott is a client of stone mantles.

And so very familiar with that. It's exciting to see chronic conditions being more [00:21:00] easily managed by the individual themselves. Don't you think that's, that's kind of a big deal.

Michael: That's a very big deal. And I think, um, you know, it's really interesting to see. Uh, payers kind of struggle with, you know, how to incorporate these kinds of capabilities into their portfolio.

Um, you know, I think that there's, uh, there's definitely, um, room for, um, you know, providing more of these services is part of the healthcare delivery or help, help, uh, ensure a package. Um, but you know, not, not quite, uh, I'm not quite embraced yet on that front. So we'll see what happens there. I think the key thing is to realize that.

It's very much a precision medicine problem, right? A, an app, um, with a continuous glucose monitor might work for you if you're in a particular range of A1C, but it might not be the right thing for another. And so, um, it is a little careful as we go, but I'm happy to see it. [00:22:00] Especially things like home dialysis.

I mean, all these things improve quality of life. Uh, and they have the same efficiency factor involved as well.

Dave: You know, we, we, one of the episodes that we've done is with, um, a gentleman that does a lot of research around these particular areas. Um, his name's Tom Donnelly, I think, you know, Tom from the collaborative and he talked about the importance of the home and, uh, how the home is so very different from the clinic in terms of cleanliness includes terms of setup in terms of operational ability.

W, what do you see as kind of, are there certain technologies out there that you're excited for for the home, uh, that, uh, could make that experience better for individuals?

Michael: So I'm going to go to something maybe wouldn't expect, [00:23:00] but, um, it's really. Um, especially for a lot of the chronic disease monitoring, it's better medical devices.

And I think, you know, that I used to run a remote patient monitoring product offering, and it's really challenging to have patients look administering their own blood pressure cost and things like that. Um, you know, think about, um, you know, hadn't even come to a sleep lab for a sleep study. There are medical grade devices coming out that do a lot more convenient job of measuring, um, many different vital signs.

Um, and, uh, you know, a good example of this is bio beats, um, which is a watch and patch. Um, Amwell has partnered with them to provide remote patient monitoring. Um, there's some. Rumor, I guess it's more than rumor. If it's in the paper that the next apple watch will be able to measure blood pressure, at least maybe not in a medical grade.

Um, but when you start to be able to measure all these different critical, vital signs without relying upon the patient as much, you know, [00:24:00] then, then some of those other factors you talked about at the home are less important. There's, there's one other kind of way out there, technology that I'll mention, and that is extracting vital signs from the video itself.

Um, so imagine if you had a video visit with your doctor and while the doctor was talking to you, the video was being processed and measuring your temperature, your pulse rate, um, your, your SPO two levels, blood oxygen levels, um, and even someday blood pressure, just imagine how convenient that care would be.

Uh, so those technologies are also interesting.

Dave: I could, I could imagine if that were the case that you had that type of technology, either the ability to, um, manage, uh, for blood pressure in your watch or to do some of your vitals via visit that the entertainment industry would be very interested in [00:25:00] that, not just the healthcare

Michael: industry, but the entertainment industry.

And you've got it. All right.

Since you brought it up.

Dave: Yeah.

Michael: There's actually companies that are measuring emotion as well. Right. Um, and so feel is one of those would really interesting, but it's all part of. Combining different vital signs together, uh, together with other electrical signals, EKG wise, and kind of measuring emotion on.

And that, that has a really interesting applications for PTSD and other conditions with triggers like IVs potentially, but you know, even emotional triggers that could actually. You know, cause you to take a wrong step on a diet or something like that. Eventually he might have a wristband that tells you you're in danger.

Aransas: That was very cool. I love to your emphasis on passive data collection [00:26:00] and the. Competence we can have in the data when it's, when it's collected that way. I think though, too, like this, these types of data collection spaces are the ones that we're going to see the most value and combining them with a hybrid model and using.

The humans to help interpret and understand its support and guide the person with what to do with that data and how to, um, how to make it meaningful and, and sustainably valuable to them. Right? Because that's, that's part of, of the issue with, with the data that we collect so often is that we become numb to it and stop paying attention to.

Michael: That is a key, actually, I want to just say that it's not just enough to generate data. You actually have to have the, uh, the ability to use that data effectively. So it really there's a lot of advancements in machine learning and neural networks and other technologies of that [00:27:00] sort and advanced analytics, uh, that are a key part of using that data effectively.

So we shouldn't forget. You know,

Dave: there's, there's the positive side of this. And then there's the, also the, the challenges that we may see in the, in the near future. I just have the opportunity and I wouldn't call it an opportunity. I'd call it more of a problem to, um, to get a, um, a hotspot from, I'm not going to name the.

For the company, but from one of the carriers, one of the big carriers, and I was thinking about all of the challenges because I had to go to their store. I had to call their customer care center. I had to wait for it to be shipped. And at every step along the way, it was a miserable experience just to get set up.

All I was trying to do is set the hotspot. Spot up. And, uh, I, it dawned on me and I, this [00:28:00] is occurred to me a number of times, but they were trying so hard to create an omni-channel strategy, but their execution was so. Bad. And yet here they are sharing with me some of the smartest devices that are out there.

And I, you know, for this particular conversation, I'm beginning to wonder if we're not going to see some kind of stratification that occurs where there's going to be really, really smart genius solutions tied to and connected to fax machines. Right. You know, like it's going to be that you're going to have that, that dissonance that occurs when you ha, when you don't have alignment around channel.

Aransas: Yeah. I mean, I think I had a very different experience yesterday. I went, I had to take my daughter for COVID tests, kicked her to the theater. Cause she's not yet 12 and hasn't been vaccinated hopefully by the time this airs, that will not be true. But I had to [00:29:00] take her to an urgent care clinic to get her test.

And I called ahead to try to figure out if they had these tests and the very first. If you want to test, just walk in, we'll get you taken care of right away. So with sort of moderate confidence, we pranced in, we were greeted at the door. I gave the woman no more than six words of information about our visit.

She directed me to a self-service console that guided me through the check-in process. The fewest questions imaginable. And it was so simple and so smart because it was just an iPad loaded with an intake form, but it had one difference. It had a little place where I could set my, my ID so that it scanned it effectively.

Similarly, I put my insurance card there and just that one tiny. [00:30:00] Physical change in the intake made the whole process goes so seamlessly because it looked at all the data on my driver's license. It input that into the intake form. It looked at all the data on my insurance card. It input all of that into the intake form.

I signed their disclosure agreement, which I didn't rate because, you know, I just. Foolishly trusting. And I was in the queue. The guy walked in, he stuck the swab in her nose and we walked. And then I got an email with the results and went on my way and it was so simple. And I, again, I think it's a nice integration of how, like, in this case, could they have given me the take home kit and I could have done it at home.

Sure. But it was even more seamless and. Easier and faster for me to rely on the expert to do the procedure correctly. Uh, but [00:31:00] all the other things that I just really didn't want to be hassled with, they took care of.

Michael: And a medical assistant didn't have to do those things either. Right. And then, you know, I think, I really do think that COVID has prompted some of this automation.

Uh, none of the things you just talked about have much to do with care delivery at all. Right. Except for the occurrence wrapped around it. Um, and you know, after COVID, who's going to tolerate sitting in the waiting room for a long period of time. Um, I think, I think people's expectations have changed a little bit around that.

And so, you know, there will be winners and losers, I think based on how quickly, you know, health providers adapt.

Aransas: I think how product for where they are as we talk to, we've been talking to young, affluent, Consumers for a research project we've been doing. And I was so struck by their expectations around a product first approach.

So I think as we talked to older populations, so often we see this, this need for the [00:32:00] credibility and the history of a human delivered service or product. And that is what. Sort of drives confidence, but when we talk to younger people, it's about, yes, we want you to have that credibility and we want you to have that experience, but we want to know that you're really good at doing the things that can be done digitally, digitally.

And now I think COVID sort of pushed the rest of us. My, my grandma now knows how to use zoom at 92. Right? Like there was a whole world of transition that happened for people in the digital.

Michael: The other thing about the demographic though in your study is that, you know, they are also healthy, right. Um, on the large.

And so. Really for providers and health plans to, to gain loyalty from those kinds of patients and consumers, um, you know, is huge. And to keep, you know, keep that convenience, um, you know, keeping [00:33:00] them in your plan.

Dave: You know, one of the things that, that what you guys are describing causes me to think about is perhaps it's the healthy people that need to go to the new healthcare store, whatever that is.

And it's the sick people who need to stay home and have the healthcare come to them. Um, because Francis, you were able to just walk. That that, um, swab as quickly as possible and get out for your daughter. And the opposite is now. Now someone can actually, um, you know, manage their blood pressure, uh, deal with a chronic condition, um, in their home.

And maybe the, that the nurses need to travel. And, uh, the healthy people need to show up in person. It's interesting. It

Aransas: definitely made me nervous taking a healthy person into a place for sick people. I think it, it always has been, [00:34:00] we're so much more aware of. How disease transfers now than we ever were before.

At least the lay person we weren't, you know, we knew we should wash our hands, but beyond that, I don't think many of us had done the deep analysis of droplet.

Well

Michael: would do that kind of work at APL actually, but that's another story for another day. I did want to throw in one more interesting technology to the next year from an experience standpoint, and that is augmented reality and virtual reality, um, kind of timely with the, you know, the big meadow versus, um, you know, announcement from Facebook, et cetera.

But there are some really interesting. Uh, companies out there that are really figuring out a way to do, uh, rehab, um, or other types of stress reduction or even pain management through virtual reality. And so that's another really interesting [00:35:00] area where clearly in that case, it's all about the experience, the experiences, the therapy, which is another interesting way of looking at.

Yeah, I

Dave: re I remember you sharing some research. It's one point that suggested that, um, w for some patients augmented reality worked as well as morphine. Uh, Uh, w was that you, Mike, that shared that information? I don't know if

Michael: it was a really interesting line of research along those lines, especially for chronic pain management.

Um, you know, it's actually retraining your brain more than it is treating the source of the pain after a certain point. Um, and augmented reality is a good vehicle for that, but there's also, um, you know, XR health is a good example of a company that's really trying to make. You know, virtual visits, um, you know, seamless through virtual reality where it's much more of an experience, a better experience for the patient then, you know, flat video screen over zoom.

And so [00:36:00] in that case, you know, I think there's a big opportunity there and to really enhance the experience of a virtual care episode.

Aransas: Wow. That's really, really cool. I'm excited to see where that goes. I, especially here on the augmented reality, what an exciting potential innovation Mike, it has been so cool to have you here and to see more of what you're seeing.

I always try to. The key experience strategy takeaways at the end of the episode, and I'll rely on you and Dave to help fill in the gaps. But for me, the big takeaway here is that yeah, healthcare has historically been slow to innovate, but, uh, they've gotten really no. Powerful nudge from the world over the last couple of years, but especially because of the pandemic, um, as consumer needs [00:37:00] and expectations shift forward, they are going to have to step up and think digitally forward and think about the needs of consumers.

And as always, I think that. That's true across all industries and categories and healthcare is just a really prime example of the how and why, but for our listeners who are designing, you know, picture frames, um, it might be worth thinking about these questions as well. What is it that your customer needs now?

What matters to them now, how do you fit into their lives now? And with regard to healthcare specifically, um, so much of what you were saying here gives me hope for the future. The fact that we are, we're finally seeing some headway and digital first primary care kind of taking the Netflix model. Um, the ways [00:38:00] that we're looking at the integration of augmented reality and AI, as well as.

Well creating hybrid solutions that integrate both digital and human supports and the ways in which we're starting to enable better, more effective, more efficient self care at home. Um, and, and certainly with the passive measurements that you were talking about, um, from these devices and treatments, anything else that you hope our listeners will walk away with?

Fantastic

Michael: summary. Actually, I think the only thing I would add back to Dave, a digital assistant a question earlier is the technology is not ready to take over for your doctor. And that's really not. What's going on out there. That's not the big trend. It's how can digital. Um, combined with the human touch, even if the human touches over a virtual communication channel to make it an overall better experience together, digital and human.

I love

Dave: that. I love that. It's got to be the [00:39:00] balance of both. And we're seeing that, uh, what does it mean to be hybrid? It means to be really, really powerful, uh, to, to use the best of both the human intelligence, as well as the digital intelligence. Thanks so much.

Aransas: We loved having you here and look forward to hearing in a year what's happened. Um, hopefully we'll see this surge of innovation continue. We are so grateful to all of you who listened to our show who provide feedback and. Share your thoughts on what matters to you, what you want to hear more and less of.

So please keep talking to us, keep listening, keep sharing, liking, and subscribing the show. We couldn't do it without yet. Thank you again, Mike.

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