The Experience Strategy Podcast: What Happens When Food and Experience Meet

April 12, 2022

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In today’s episode, we are joined by Ryan Hutmacher, an award-winning chef and founder of the Well Beyond Food project. As a self-proclaimed experientialist, his company creates custom food experiences designed to foster connection & promote inclusion within organizations and their teams. Tune in as we discuss the importance of authenticity to brand-building and ways to measure the ROI and impact of intangible experiences. 

Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to the experience strategy podcast, where we talk to customers and experts about how to create products and services that feel like time well spent. And now here are your hosts experience nerds, Dave Norton, and Iranis Savvi welcome

Aransas: to the experience strategy podcast. I'm Iranis Savvi. Hi, I'm Dave Norton.

And today we are joined by Ryan Hocker. Ryan is an award winning chef and he is the founder of the well beyond food project. This project is what we're gonna spend our time exploring today. But before. Ryan did this. He started out as what he calls a self-proclaimed experie. So his company creates custom food experiences designed to foster connection and to really promote inclusion within organizations and their teams.

So from interactive workshop ops and webinars to [00:01:00] team building adventures and wellness retreats, Ryan's creative formats make way for human experiences. That keep connection at their center. Ryan's talents have been featured pretty much everywhere from TEDx and the today show. Um, he has been on ABC's the chew.

He was the first ever weight Watchers chef. His chef's. Skills are extraordinary, but his skill sets extend well beyond cooking. Um, he is truly an inspiring human and we are so excited to have him join us today to talk about experience and that intersection with. Probably the place where most of us first really felt what it meant to have an experience, which was [00:02:00] in the kitchen or at a dining room table.

And so, uh, really, really happy to have you with us today, Ryan, thank you for being here.

Ryan: I humbly appreciate that introduction, Iran. And, uh, thank you for having me and to Dave. Hello. Nice to connect. I'm already feeling a little bit, uh, outta my comfort zone because I have to say I'm more of an artist when I say the word experiential, as opposed to the both of you are.

Experts in this area where there's basically created the text and the ideas around, uh, experience strategy. So I'm, uh, gonna use my intuition to try to connect to some of the ideas that you probably created in a textbook somewhere. I've never read the ven diagrams. I just live it.

Aransas: I love that if it, if it weren't true.

And honestly, as we've said on past episodes, ancient. Then it wouldn't be so impactful. [00:03:00] So, um, uh, much like food, um, these, these constructs have existed forever, right? Like I'm sure people have been attracted to that balance of acid and fat and. Whatever that whatever those magical recipes are that, you know, well, uh, that those palettes have probably been pretty true over centuries.

And, and the same is true with experience strategy. I think that there are some deep ancient truths that exist within, as that create a sense of meaning and value and experience answers. But before we get into all of that, I wanna hear in your words, what the well beyond food project really is and what it aims to do.

Ryan: Ah, yes. Well, the well beyond food project is a culmination of my years as a chef and within the wellness industry, creating moments and experiences that. Connect people. And to put it into context, as far as [00:04:00] formats are concerned, uh, I work with organizations, corporations, uh, hospital systems to create interactive.

Events and, uh, of lately, some of those have been virtual in the form of cooking demonstrations and engaging, uh, webinars that, um, are one on one processes or group processes. They deal with food nutrition. And being really intentional about connecting people to their neighbors. And then outside of these wellness programs that are virtual, I actually am starting to get back to doing onsite formats.

Which exists in the realm of team building. And so mm-hmm, , I'm taking these intangibles of, of creating connection and I'm using food as the universal language that allows me to [00:05:00] allow employees within an organization to, to see and be seen. And, and that's what the well beyond food project is. It's, it's allowing people to be seen and to see others and to create perspective so we can move people forward in their personal and professional

lives.

Aransas: That's really awesome. How specifically do you do that? Allowing people to feel seen. What does that look like?

Ryan: For me, it's a very intuitive process and it, yes, it starts with food. Food is the bridge. I, I, I mentioned it as the universal language. Everybody can agree upon food. We all need it to nourish ourselves.

Um, but part of the process of building connection with people is, is empathy in, in. Using this understanding of how we see other people and how we understand them to feel and, and sh creating a shared experience. I use humor and I use [00:06:00] storytelling in my formats to create a common, to create a common connection.

So if that, if that gives a little bit of background on it, yeah.

Dave: I love that idea and of adding humor to create that connection. Um, you know, that's a really, what's really interesting about what you're doing is when I think about a wonderful food experience, I think about an emotional job to get had done.

Cause it's a sensory experience and I'm kind of like, uh, imagining, you know, what's my first taste going to be like, What's my second taste going to be like all the way through what, what you're trying to do is more of a social type of job to be done. that builds upon an emotional job to be done. Right.

So you're, you're trying to. Still have that wonderful kind of fry tag arc of the cooking [00:07:00] experience. And then on top of that, it sounds like what you're doing is allowing teams to become teams, to, to work alongside each other, to really get to know each other, help me understand how, how it is that they see each other through food.

Is there something that they do that causes them to see each other?

Ryan: True food. Yeah. So I'll take one of my formats, for example, um, is an interactive team building event, and I have a couple of different expressions under this team build experience. One of them is I basically produce cooking competitions.

So think of your favorite cooking show and what I will you is instead of me. Necessarily cooking and feeding people. And that's the narrative. I actually empower the, the guests or the clients to, I divide them up sometimes cross functionally across an organization so we can mix and match different personalities, [00:08:00] uh, leadership management, um, subordinates, and then.

Figure out from once I understand what the strategy is on, on why the organization wants to create this team build event and why, why they want them to connect. I will then develop a choreography around what are people gonna cook? What is the theme? How much duration do they have? and do I provide them with enough equipment or do I create some constraints?

Because it's, it's not only the element of creativity of what are they gonna cook in a competition to showcase to my judges and myself later on, but it's what constraints are they working against? So is there, um, Are they limited by the size of the pan? Can they boil something? Is the pan not deep enough?

Is there electricity? Can we even plug in a cooktop? And so the [00:09:00] experience of connecting people comes through. Once I divide the teams up, I lay out the rules and the boundaries of the, the competition. I usually tie it into the company's mission. And so getting what I aim to do my strategy is I need to connect leadership to the employees.

I need to connect the employees to the mission and I need to. Connect the employees to each other. And so that's the formula I work from and try to deconstruct. And at the end of it, these people are creating a dish together as a pod or a team. So you have introverts and extroverts, the extroverts. The boisterous ones.

They, they commander almost the big part of the cooking process, but the introverts, I also look for areas that they can be productive and feel of value. And so it's not just cooking. I throw other elements [00:10:00] in, like you have to come up with a pitch, you're developing a concept for a restaurant, and this is your, your dish.

You have venture to capitalists that are gonna be listening to you. And so this needs to be the best dish you need to name your. Company or your restaurant name and the name of this dish. And so that way I create this layered effect of engaging everybody in that pod to then come together, to present in front of the mass, in front of all of the pods or the groups within the organization.

And so it creates this small connection and then this collective connection. Where they can cheer for each other and the end result, um, I've taken them through a myriad of, of fright because I'm throwing ingredients in them that they didn't expect that they have to cook with. And I'm creating. Humor, because I have, you know, you mentioned sensory earlier.

I have music that's playing in the music is really gonna dictate the, the, [00:11:00] the feverish pitch or whether or not I want it to feel relaxed. And then I crank it up. Um, the ambience, the light ambience in the room dictates a lot of how people will feel, whether they're unnerved or whether they're calm and cool, and then the size of the room.

So. All of these sensory experiences come together in, in this experience. And at the end of it, it allows everybody to have the humility, to showcase their, their experience of how they collaborated together and then what they can observe each other as a collective, as a whole. So how's that for? an answer.

That's

Dave: pretty cool. I ran, I was just thinking this sounds like way more fun than a trust fall, right? I mean, you know, like right. Yeah, yeah. Way preferred to do this. The most dangerous part is if. There are knives involved, you know, like you, you don't have to put your don't onto [00:12:00] somebody

Voiceover: or something.

There are

Ryan: knives and waivers involved. Dave, I will tell you that human resources is definitely signing a waiver before the employees get knives in their hands. And my team

Dave: build events, keep the knives away from the introverts, you know, like, you know, that kinda. What an exciting thing that you're doing.

And, um, I had a couple of thoughts as, as you were kind of describing this, first of all, competitions are one of the best ways to get a social job done. Mm-hmm , I'm not at all surprised that TV, uh, today is full of cooking competitions. It has all of the elements of a great. Uh, social job to be, to get done.

You've got personal preparation. You've got gift giving. You've got, um, a facilitated, uh, encounter in this case. That's the [00:13:00] constraints that you're placing upon them. and there's an opportunity for them to connect and reconnect over time, uh, as they kind of progress through the experience. So well done. It sounds really, really exciting from a social standpoint.

Do they feel good about the food that they're actually cooking? Are they proud of what they're cooking?

Ryan: So, Dave, that's a good question. The quality control is really important, um, and to make sure everyone feels accomplished, they need to like their food. So I have a staff of chefs that will actually be walking around in supporting groups.

And there's a ratio of the number of chefs that I use depending on how large the audience says, um, I would say that, you know, for a group of 60 to 80 employees, I usually have five chefs, uh, walking around at all times to be able to support people. So not only do we not want them to cut themselves, but we wanna give them advice on techniques and spur their, [00:14:00] their creativity to create delicious.

To

Aransas: me, that feels really important in terms of the value here. That we're meeting that functional job, uh, as well as the, the more aspirational job of I'm gonna walk out of here smarter. I'm gonna walk out of here with practical skills that I can then transfer. Into something valuable for my family, the people who matter to me outside of work.

And, and I think the fact that you are successfully doing that is probably as important as the team building itself in terms of your value proposition here, um, that they feel like they've, they've learned something they've accomplished something even in the room. I hope that, you know, it sounds like in so many different ways, you're, you're creating a sense of psychological safety, both by amplifying.

The strengths of individuals and giving different groups [00:15:00] of folks away to shine within the process. But also allowing them to get that sense of personal success from the experience. So what led you to create the well beyond food project? The way you did you've you made some really conscious, clear decisions to put connection at the center of it, and I'm not sure that that's necessarily the default choice so what whats inspired that?

Ryan: I was creating a brand around health and wellness and I was burning the candle at both ends.

And I was trying to perpetuate this idea that, you know, eating well is the, the way to take care of yourself and teaching people to cook is the way that I do it, but I was highly hypocritical because I was not balanced. I was not centered. I was spinning outta control, trying to hold my business together at the seams.

Because I was under capitalized because I was understaffed [00:16:00] because of that. Uh, I was being crushed by overhead. I was spread thin doing public relations and media work. I won this cooking competition on national television and was pulled into another direction, doing another full-time job, being a spokesperson for the world's largest weight loss company.

Um, I was having a tough time holding it together and eventually the house of cards it collapsed. And I spent years struggling with burnout, depression, anxiety, feeling isolated, feeling like a failure, being lost. My identity was cooking and I absolutely fell outta love. I hated cooking because it reminded me the pain of struggling as a entrepreneur who.

Doubled down and doubled down for 10 years. And I had to, I had to start over and it was effing painful. And so the origin of the well beyond [00:17:00] food project. It's kind of an ode to, I'm not defined. My identity is not around being a chef. So it stands for that, but also to be well beyond food is not necessarily around nourishing yourself correctly with food.

It's about nourishing yourself. With the people around you. I connected to people that I'd never been vulnerable with before. I didn't even know what it was like to be vulnerable. And, uh, when the house, the cards collapsed, I needed perspective. I needed mentors and I didn't have those before. And I will never make that mistake again.

But connecting with, with strangers that would eventually, he become really good friends and allies and mentors. That's exactly what I wanna create for other people. I think there's a lot of other people that are stuck in the world. They're stuck, defined by their jobs. They're stuck. Maybe some of them as empaths feeling misunderstood.

Um, [00:18:00] that's, that's the origin of it. It comes from a place of, of pain. Hmm.

Aransas: Comes from a place of truth. It sounds like. And I think that's likely what really. Shines through in your experiences is that the design is rooted in a very truthful, authentic story that you fully believe in. And I think that that authenticity is so central to the success of most.

Aspirational jobs, certainly. Um, but in general, I think all of the work that you're doing I suspect is fueled by that authenticity. And, um, I appreciate you sharing that story with us, cuz it, it really illustrates the importance of that element in an experience strategy.

Ryan: Sure. And it's very

Dave: important and just really, really fun to listen to and, or ANSYS.

I couldn't help, but think, [00:19:00] and I know you're probably thinking the same thing too. Of all of the systemic jobs. , mm-hmm that he described as he was describing what, what he was dealing with. Right. Mm-hmm um, where that came from. So a systemic job helps you to understand, um, how you get things done across different domains of your life.

And so when you, you say I was out of balance, I had all of this stress. I no longer liked my career. Those are the types of things that, um, require you to reevaluate remanage. And, and as you said, um, kind of focus on connection, which is. Uh, intentionality that you need, um, to provide. Um, so for you, um, your enterprise is actually a way of actually balancing your life and getting more meaning out of your life.

And we we've, [00:20:00] uh, we've talked a lot about the connection between systems and meaning, and we're certainly seeing that, uh, in your story, Ryan, which is really, really cool.

Ryan: Hm. Um, you know, I will say that I held on to trying to appear as if I had all my stuff together for a long time in that hypocrisy, the hypocrisy is what eventually had me submit.

To that. And mm-hmm , I mean, my ego, my ego took a hit and it wasn't an ego. Like I'm better than you. It was an ego of needing to feel validated, needing to feel worthy and needing to feel good enough. And I did everything. I could hold things together at the seams. And I just felt really off and especially doing a national news appearance.

I was in my head about how to try to pretend to be chefy enough and to be seemingly important enough as opposed to being [00:21:00] in my heart, being authentic. And I just felt like I was acting and it, it, it was brutal.

Aransas: It's so exhausting too, all that play acting. And then it's not even interesting. Because it's just like, , it's like a cheap vanilla frosting instead of being something with a hint of lavender and an essence of lemon.

Right. And uniquely. Wonderfully you. And I think that's what customers are attracted to, right. That was my attempt to blend, uh, food and experience there. Uh, did awesome, but it's so much more interesting when it's authentic and it's so much more valuable as a result because I, I, Frank, I mean, you talk about, you talk about the, the differences between cooking shows.

There's. So many of them that they could easily become indistinguishable mm-hmm because of the [00:22:00] authenticity that is prioritized in the host and in the pro approaches to these shows, the ones that are successful are the ones that are wholly differentiated based on a culture and climate. And to me, having heard your story now, Your brand makes more sense your product experience makes more sense.

And I just think it's, so it's so central to understanding why you do what you do and how you do what you do, and then ultimately why it's successful. So it's like, as we start to think about what this episode can hopefully inspire for our listeners, most of whom are experienced strategists in different roles.

I think it's really looking at who you are, whether you as an individual or you, or, or you as a representative of a brand and starting to get really clear on what's most true for you. [00:23:00] That includes the vulnerable stuff. where are we? A little out of sync? Where are we not practicing what we preach and how do we then use that to translate it into a new strength that will tell our stories more meaningfully, more vulnerably and more authentically

Ryan: can, can I, I mean, that just resonates deeply with me.

And what I have to say is it took me a long time to navigate where authenticity. Was at, because for a long time, I was a victim after, after kind of things fell apart and I was, you know, seemingly lost and stuck in my life. I felt like I was a victim authenticity lies, I believe between somewhere between, uh, ego or narcissist them maybe.

And that, that victimization it's like right in the middle. Not too much of each and [00:24:00] to help other people try to find out who they really experience them themselves, who are, how are they experiencing themselves to be is the essence of what I do. And maybe I do a little slide of hand with the food. It is it's food centric, but at the heart of it, it's really a, about connecting to the person to themselves in one another.

So. .

Aransas: Yeah, I think again, we go back to this idea that I feel like safety. Is a central word for what you're doing. So psychological safety, food, safety, knife, safety, uh, but, but really I think the highest order of, of work that you're doing is around psychological safety and helping these teams, uh, as individuals and as a collective shine and feel comfortable expressing their own unique voice and style.

And. That's not gonna happen if you're up there, like, Hey, I'm Mr. [00:25:00] She, I know it all. And I always did, right? Like this is not, it's not, it is not gonna create a sense of psychological safety. That ha that is, will absolutely begin with you as the leader of the experience. And the second you get up there and act vulnerably, you create the safe space for them to act vulnerably without your vulnerability.

your main tentative success gets lost.

Ryan: the dissonance. So in relating to what you said, the dissonance of feeling like my identity, my credibility, and how I'm perceived, you know, on an internet search versus who I truly am and who I truly am. As I was a burned out chef, I still have to sometimes bring my, the, the only way that I enjoy cooking these days is if I know it's for a greater good, that's going to connect or help people, if I'm doing it transactionally, cuz somebody wants to hire a personal chef.

Hm, I'm not [00:26:00] interested. And I feel really vulnerable to say that that I've been a burned out chef. I don't love it the same way that I used to when I started my business, I feel like that could potentially scare suitors away, but that's the truth of, of where I'm at. And maybe that's relatable for other people that they're not their work.

There's something. They show up to do something greater. Mm. So,

Aransas: wow. What a powerful message. So, Ryan, I know we've asked you a lot of questions and , and sometimes, uh, kept pushing, but while you have us today, do you have any questions for us?

Ryan: yeah. For, for you or Dave, I, I gotta ask this sometimes my question, the question that I get from my clients is, you know, what's the ROI on an experience that they do for me.

And, and a lot of times there is an intangible thing that you can, you can feel, but you don't know how to measure it necessarily on paper. Maybe it's an employee survey, but I [00:27:00] have never been in the business of selling intangible seemingly until the last year. Mm-hmm . So, if you had any advice for, for me to answer a question ROI on intangibles, is there a way that you could help me see that

Aransas: answer?

Yeah, absolutely. I think the first thing you're gonna wanna do, and it sounds like you're already doing this is ask the company what they wanna get out of this, but I think absolutely is importantly, you want to find out what the attendees want to get out of this. Okay. And that is every bit as important to the results that you're going to show.

And then from there, the place that I would start is prepost and, um, at the start of your event, really asking people what their sentiment is, how they're feeling about their level of connection. Let's say like that the that's, the, the metric you're trying to move is a sense of connection or feeling seen by my teammates.

Um, and so I'd ask them. Uh, [00:28:00] either just before the event or at this start of the event to you, there's all sorts of fun, easy ways you can do this. Um, you can capture that data and I can walk you through some ways to do that. Mm. And from there then you have, you have your, your baseline. And so you, uh, can take that then to.

Capture that shift that's happened within the course of the experience by asking them afterward. And then what I would do is I would also as a part of your process, Resurvey a month after the fact and start to learn what moves without that data. Um, you don't even really know what's happening in your experience.

You've got this felt sense of what works and I know you're tuned in and you're paying attention, but I want you to have some powerful data that you can use to inform own experience design so that you can help to continually tailor based on what you're learning. And. [00:29:00] And so that he can use it as a proof point when you're selling this project, we promised to have you out of here on time.

So to wrap us up a few closing thoughts for those of you who are experienced strategists listening in on this conversation. I think the, the biggest takeaway for me is this old storyline around authenticity. No one can be you. It is truly the only thing that you have to authentically sell. And so designing a, an experience from a place of authenticity and truth is just absolutely essential to creating both meaning and value beyond that.

I think as always, we're looking at what are, what are the jobs to be done? Ryan has done the work to understand which jobs are most important to his business clients. I think through this, hopefully he's gonna get even deeper and look at [00:30:00] the, the. End user consumer, um, that within those companies, what their goals are.

And then really, I think I love your question, Ryan, and it just speaks so much to, to who you are and how you think about your, your business and your product, but really figuring out how to get data, to validate that and to continue learning and growing. That's what we're all doing in this business. Uh, continually asking questions, exploring, learning, growing, and through it.

Hopefully creating more, meaning, more value to all of you listening. Thank you so much for being with us, Ryan. Thank you so much. I admire you so much and I'm so grateful. For the work that you're doing. If you want to know more about Ryan, check out the well beyond food.com. I promise it won't disappoint.

Dave. We totally need to invite Ryan to come to one of our team building events, hand, hint, hint. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Thank

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